How Rolling Fork Turns Rum, Rye, And Rare Brandy Into rare Bottles with Turner Wathen

We taste through Rolling Fork’s most interesting bottles with Turner Wathan and unpack how a rum-first company ends up leading with Armagnac, Calvados, and a revived Kentucky bourbon label. Along the way, we get the real story behind Fortuitous Union, the Bourbon Deluxe comeback, and what the current whiskey market means for drinkers who want value without hype. 
• Fortuitous Union build and why rum plus rye works 
• Weller-barrel finishing, proof choices, and non chill filtered texture 
• Fred Minnick book story, mental health honesty, and mentorship moments 
• Wayward Cask approach to Armagnac and Calvados, buying containers and telling producer stories 
• Why French oak and no char changes long aging, including a 42-year Armagnac 
• Amburana finishes, what got overused, and when it still tastes great 
• Whiskey market downturn, overproduction, DSP closures, and how to stay solvent 
• Bourbon Deluxe trademark gamble, sourcing Kentucky straight bourbon, and Green River ties 
• Contract production, mash bills, and a legendary 41-day rum fermentation 
• Where to buy, what states can ship, and what releases to watch for 
remember, www.scotchyburbonboys.com for all things Scotchy Bourbon Boys, Glenn Karen's t-shirts like I'm wearing right here. But no matter whether you listen to us or like us, make sure you like, listen, subscribe, leave good feedback, become members, and do what Kirk does all the time and leave super chats. Drink responsibly, don't drink and drive 

A rum and rye blend that drinks like a serious rye, a 42-year cask-strength Armagnac that somehow stays silky, and a bourbon brand resurrected because a trademark clock was ticking. We sit down with Turner Wathan of Rolling Fork Spirits to taste, laugh, and get unusually honest about how bottles actually get made, found, and sold when they don’t fit tidy categories.  

We dig into Fortuitous Union and why the “distilled spirit specialty” label can hide some of the best liquid on the shelf: foursquare rum, MGP rye, careful proofing, and a Weller barrel finish that pulls vanilla into the blend without muting spice. Turner shares how bartenders react, why tastings are the real marketing engine, and what he looks for when he’s building something meant to be opened with friends.  

Then we go deep on Armagnac and Calvados through the Wayward Cask lens: container-sized buys, Gascony farmers, traveling stills, French oak that isn’t charred, and the kind of terroir detail that makes brandy feel like a “final boss” spirit. We also talk Bourbon Deluxe, the Wathen family whiskey history, why Green River Distillery became the right partner, and what the current whiskey market slowdown means if you care about value, age statements, and authenticity.  

If you like independent bottlers, barrel finishing, Kentucky bourbon history, rum in bourbon barrels, and rare French brandy, this one is packed. Subscribe, share this with a spirits friend, and leave us a review so more people can find the show.

voice over Whiskey Thief

If You Have Gohsts

Transcript

Sponsor Pour And Stormy Catch Up

SPEAKER_05 0:01

Middlewest Spirits was founded in 2008, focusing on elevating the distinct flavors of the Ohio River Valley. Their spirits honor their roots and reflect their originality as makers, their integrity as producers, and their passion for crafting spirits from grain to glass. Their Michelon reserve line reflects their story from the start to the bottle to your glass with unique wheated and rye bourbons and also rye and wheat whiskies. The Michelon brand is easy to sip. It might be a grain to glass experience, but I like to think of it as uncut and unfiltered from their family. It's been a little bit of time since we did we've podcasted. You're kind of getting gotten your feet underneath you, and you're gonna be introducing something you know that's new that you put out recently, and we're excited for that. Welcome, Turner.

SPEAKER_00 2:22

Great to be back. Great to be back with the gang.

SPEAKER_05 2:25

And we've got CT in tonight. He made it, and and and then Super Nash, he made it too. What was it? Traffic. What did it do? It uh the word, what did you guys use? Delay. No, it you it it actually cooperated tonight to to make this podcast happen, right?

SPEAKER_02 2:47

Yeah, yeah, yeah. It did for me. So both of you guys in the rainstorm that we're fighting through. Ah, ah. Yeah, we got that tropical depression coming in. I know possible tornadoes and all that. So if I

Turner Returns With A Sample Pack

SPEAKER_02 3:04

go out and black out during the middle of this, well, it's winning. Well, just drink more and bury your head under a table. Is that why it's it's what is going on this glass table, of course, right? No, it's a bourbon barrel glass table. Maybe hide in a barrel. I think there's I think that's probably what I do. Take take the glass top off and climb inside the barrel.

SPEAKER_05 3:30

I think Super Nash has weighted down his house to make it tornado proof by just using bourbon bottles as the weights.

SPEAKER_02 3:39

I'm in the safest room in the house, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_05 3:44

All right, so Turner, you know, you've let's just for one, when we when you when we talked and you were about you coming back on, which was which I it was like you were like, hell yeah, right there. And all of a sudden, you're like, send what you sent out as a sample pack is just unbelievable. So talk a little bit about what you sent us, and you know, maybe we can start to go through it a little bit because now when you when you think about it, the line of rolling fork, you've got a lot of different expressions. Now, when we were with you in the Rick House, you know, one of the things you do is take really good rum and put it in really, really good bourbon barrels. And people love that, you know, and you're able to get a hold of that. But talk about that process of how of what you're doing with the rum and that it's you know, and the connection for us always is you're putting it, your barrel-aging rum in bourbon barrels now. And then you do have your bourbon now, which I can't wait because I I opened it, but I haven't uh and smelled it, which was awesome, but I have not drank it. So fantastic. Gonna do it with you, and then we could talk a little bit about the special thing you did for us right here. And I've never ever had this, and I can't wait to talk about that.

SPEAKER_00 5:16

So we started a decade ago as a rum company, and I think the last time I was on was about two or three years ago, and I only sent you all rum samples.

SPEAKER_05 5:31

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 5:33

And we are tried and true independent bottlers of spirits, and I can get into the backstory of the why. I've got a couple backstories that we can get into, but you know, we built you know uh over 600 casks of rum. And we thought let's go even more esoteric and let's find a harder product to sell. And so we're like, yeah, fuck it, Armagnac. That makes complete sense. And so we started a French

Rolling Fork Origins And Bold New Lines

SPEAKER_00 6:14

part of Rolling Fork Spirits under the Wayward Cast portfolio, where now we house over 50 casks of Armagnacs and Calvadoses going back to the early 1980s. And in 2023, so you are, and I can get into this, but the you are my family's lineage is in American whiskey. So my partner Jordan Morris and I always wanted to have under our portfolio some of our historic family brands, and when we sorry, I got some background noise over here because of my kids, but yeah, so my bad. We wanted to bring about three to five brands back to life, and we had a short selection of what we would like to do, and one of them was bourbon deluxe. We loved the label, we loved its prominence in the 40s and 50s, and in 2023, Jim Beam let the trademark lapse. And to be candid, we acquired the trademark in hopes that Jim Beam would give us a lifeboat and just buy it back from us because we're a cheap entity. And so we got the trademark before we had any bourbon stocks in our in our hands. And their lawyers said to kick rocks. And so you have one year from filing a trademark to put it in use. You are not allowed to put an alcoholic trademark in use under a t-shirt or a hat. If it's uh trademarked in alcoholic spirit, it has to be in a bottle. So that started the adventure of sourcing American whiskey. And we already had some MGP in-house, but this brand is truly a Kentucky bourbon brand. So we could not misuse the brand by not putting Kentucky bourbon into it. So that set out our adventure to source Kentucky Straight Bourbon. So we started as a rum company for two guys with day jobs. There's no reason why any rum company or two dudes should have 44 skews of rums. That's stupid math. And we diversified into French spirits, and there's a nostalgia and mystique behind why we did that. And we then expanded into American whiskey under bourbon locks. And you know, that sample kit I sent you two years ago is nothing like what I sent you you know two months ago.

SPEAKER_05 9:21

No. The only the one thing that you did send us that you sent us in the first kit was the fortuitous union. So that that we had sent you batch two.

SPEAKER_00 9:34

Okay. This is batch three, and batch two was a blend of Jamaican, Dominican, Barbados rums, and MGP rye. And we took all that shit out, and we just blended four square rums and MGP rye, and I could put that in any blind sample of rye samples, and I think it's one of the best rye's that exists on the market.

SPEAKER_05 10:00

Oh boy, I've got to try it now. Hold on. Yeah, hold on.

SPEAKER_04 10:03

I gotta go get it. Yay, sir. You're you're now I gotta I gotta move on here. Hold on.

SPEAKER_00 10:08

Yeah, it's so much better than batch two. Batch two had a lot of Jamaican funk on the nose. This is gonna be a straight up rye. Even though it's still a 60-40 blend of rum to rye.

SPEAKER_05 10:27

All right, and then are we looking? Was it 100 proof?

SPEAKER_00 10:34

We originally bottled Barbon Deluxe. I'm sorry, we originally bottled for Tourist Union its first batch at 103 proof. So we proofed it back down, we slow proofed it back down to its original proof at 103. Okay, and it's a three-year four-square rum and a three-year MGP rye, recast married together and then recast into a weller barrel for two additional years.

SPEAKER_03 11:07

Into a weller barrel. You like those weller barrels.

SPEAKER_00 11:12

There's something about the vanilla that pop out of a weeded bourbon that really allow the spiciness of a rye to balance itself out.

SPEAKER_02 11:27

Wow, that's a great news on it.

SPEAKER_04 11:33

That's that's got a really good palate. That's that's yummy to drink. Wow.

SPEAKER_05 11:40

Hey Roxy. Are you getting ready?

SPEAKER_06 11:43

To do what?

SPEAKER_05 11:44

To go to a birthday. Okay, good. I just wasn't sure.

SPEAKER_06 11:48

The best of both worlds.

SPEAKER_05 11:50

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 11:51

There is that is like sugary sweet in a way that the rye, and then the rye has the heat behind it that just kind of keeps your it it's just it's so different.

SPEAKER_00 12:11

It's such a non-traditional rye because it is so floral on the front.

SPEAKER_05 12:17

That's there's it's butterscotch mint. That is unique. I I it's you know, it's almost uh honestly, it's a candy. I mean, this is what the flavor of like if you're if you could dissolve perfectly a candy. I mean, that's that's what it's like that is that's amazing.

SPEAKER_04 12:54

Yeah, there's not too many people that are probably doing this, are there, Turner?

SPEAKER_00 12:59

Yeah, because no one's this stupid.

SPEAKER_05 13:05

No, honestly, Turner, that is, that is a whatever you would, you know, it's funny because what do you call it, right? It's a you know, it's a a rye and a whiskey at the same time. It's it's a dominant rum, but it rum is of a softer palette. So the rye, which is a way harsher, it takes at 6040 blend, the rye is coming through strong, but it's you know, I I don't even what category is this? It's just a rum.

SPEAKER_00 13:38

No, it's what on the if you look on if you look on the back label, it's categorized as the worst spirit category that exists, which is a distilled spirit specialty, which is all the liqueurs and all everything that you never want to sell, or you want to sell proof down for $15, it goes in the distilled spirit specialty category. Because it's not a rum or a rye, it's it's the it's the highest quality distilled spirit specialty that exists in the United States of America. It is non-chill filter. No one else does that.

SPEAKER_04 14:19

I mean, it's non-chill filtered. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:23

This is this is this is it's so good. I mean, honestly, it's fantastic. It stays on the phone.

SPEAKER_04 14:31

I swear to I I just like the fact that it says fortuitous union instead of what it was originally meant to be. I I always get a kick out of that part. When I read the label, I'm like, who came up with that? And then I'm thinking, well, Turner didn't want to put the original label on it.

SPEAKER_00 14:49

Yeah, we had to come up with a euphemism.

SPEAKER_04 14:53

Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 14:56

God, I love you, man. This is I you are you are phenomenal. I I and it's and it's so uh so this is this is kind of cool. So talking about a little bit, one of the reasons why I contacted you is that I was actually uh I asked you that question when because I read Fred, I had Fred Minnick read the book to me when I went to New Orleans when I was traveling, and there that he there's a whole section about you, and it's the coolest thing ever. I mean, he basically credits you in a time of his life for putting him back on the right direction. I mean, but the way he describes it, if someone didn't know you, you you can't hear the voice that he was, you know, he's reading what you said to him. You know, he shows up, he's going going to go to back to school to be, and you're just like, what the hell are you doing here? But I could hear what he was saying, and you saying it with you, you know, with your higher voice, and it just it sounded so authentic. And then I'm just like, well, that's just Turner, he's just great. And and most people who have met you in this industry, you know, you're well loved. I mean, I don't always get people going out of their way specifically to tell me, tell you hi. Martin Duffy said to tell you that. Greg is on right now, I think. He's been commenting. So, and he said, absolutely, we gotta get back to Omore.

SPEAKER_00 16:40

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 16:41

I we on tomorrow.

SPEAKER_00 16:45

Greg Snyder is one of the more

Fred Minnick Story And Real Talk

SPEAKER_00 16:51

valuable integral individuals in the past 20 years than spirits. Much like Fred Minnick is. You have to ship different parts of the stills from different states. So I was knee deep in trying to figure out my family lineage and figure out if I could ever do this. And I was the admissions counselor for Bellerman's NBA program, and I probably screwed Bellerman out of a lot of promotional opportunities because Fred walked into my office, and I knew about whiskey women, and I knew about Fred. Fred had written a piece in the New York Times about Chip Tate, who was the master distiller for balcons in Texas. And Chip Chip dissolved his interest in operating balcones by bringing a gun to the boardroom. So if anybody wants a good five-page read, go look up Fred's New York Times article on Chip T. It's fucking phenomenal. So I knew I knew this guy, Fred as a writer. He walks in Fred minute, and he has VA money, and he doesn't know what to do with it. According to Fred, and he didn't give me all these details, but it was nice that I was a small part of a really well-ridden piece, an autobiography that all that also hits on a lot of people that are in the industry that are very important. So he comes into my office, and I knew who he was, and we talked for about 10 or 15 minutes, and I asked him what his objective was. Is he gonna go and work for Humano? Is he gonna go be account executive? No. So why waste two and a half years of your life to create some sense of comfort when you're at the precipice of success, and all he needed was another year and a half for the industry to really pivot to see the fruits of his labor, and he stuck with it, but I was the guy that told him that there's no use or leverage for him to get an MBA because he's already a national treasure.

SPEAKER_05 20:19

Yeah, you he basically said, What what are you why would you do this? You're not gonna gain anything from it when you've all when most people are here, they're here to get where you already are. That's what they go for, right? And I understand from a from a compensation aspect, you know, that wasn't quite cutting it the way that he thought. Plus, he was, you know, he talk talks about how he let social media get to him. Like he was looking at the critics, and you know, someone said, Well, how do you even know they're saying this about you? And he goes, Well, I go look, and they're like, they're like, You actually go look to find out when what people are saying bad about you. And I was just like, Yeah, I mean, how people take social media, but but Fred has the whole uh mental aspect of the PTSD and being and overcoming depression multiple times in his life. And I mean, it's gotta be like I asked you, did you know that was gonna be in the book? And I and you were like, No, you're like, I so that is that had to be a really nice surprise, right? Because I mean, he the the you know, he definitely credits you for being you. I mean, when when it's if anybody ever gets a chance to hang out with Turner, there's nothing more than how his passion is for the industry, the respect he has, but also the respect, and you know, you're you're a family guy, and you just have respect for just it's almost as if you become you feel better once when you've hung. out with you. It's just you have that way about your personality.

SPEAKER_00 22:06

That those those first three pages of his book, if that doesn't put things into perspective for anyone, and luckily enough, I've never I respect all I respect anyone that's part of a that's a wars any type of uniform. Give me one second, gentlemen.

SPEAKER_06 22:30

Okay.

SPEAKER_05 22:32

Yep, there it is. So you guys, this fortuitous union, I think this could be one of my favorite things I've ever tasted. I mean the butterscotch to me I taste butterscotch and then a cool mint, but the richness of the butterscotch is crazy. So he's pulling out those really good I mean what does four square how good is four square rum?

SPEAKER_04 22:58

Four square rum in my opinion is one of the like better and that's what we drank when we were with him some of the bottle the barrels that had Weller the one that I got the little bottle of that you guys decided to steal my idea and drink drink those looking natural appaninos. That was that oh I do recall that foursquare just works man it I I mean we that day we tried what Fiji rum you it was CT you're the one that found the foursquare in the uh 1997 Bernheim Wheater barrel.

SPEAKER_05 23:36

Yes that was delicious I think that's what Rachel wasn't Rachel in the video thieving that barrel to get us all the bottles yep yeah I think she's on the barrel's barefoot or something.

SPEAKER_04 23:50

Yes we're giving her shit about splinters.

SPEAKER_00 23:53

Yeah or standing on your back so what so I thought the way that Fred wove in yeah I thought he took I thought it took a lot of honesty to write the words that he wrote and to find a way to weave in the history that he did and I sent Fred a text I sent Fred a text the other day about this and I said I was coming on with you guys but you know I learned a lot from the portion that towards the tail end of the book when he started talking about Seton Porter and National Distillers and National Distillers in Jim Beam in the Vietnam War. And you know how there was a lot of contention and misnomers over the purity of alcohol at that time and it was really Jim Beam's ability to acquire national distillers and obtain their really well kept and high quality stocks and then reintroduce them into some of their higher ended spirits under old grandad that that kept the bourbon economy alive in the in the 90s which led to the boom in the 2000s and how it ended with the truthful how it started with such a abrupt and honest portray into what a lot of people face which is you know PTSD in the aftermath of sacrificing your livelihood and putting yourself at risk to serve our country firefighters do it policemen do it ambulance drivers EMS drivers or military and our servicemen it's an unheralded risk that they all take so I thought it was very honest for him to open up that way and to conclude with a sense that he found peace by realizing the thing that was most important to him which was was his family and he found that peace through attempting to piece this you know he built a career at this point he had built a career he had done burn and beyond he had done you the all the tastings he has a Super Bowl party but what brought him back to his foundation and to what really is going to be his driver in the next chapter's life and his purpose is his family.

SPEAKER_04 26:58

And I think it's a real honest well-written autobiography that also weaves in a lot of really cool fucking history oh yeah there was a lot more to this book than I had any idea that would be there I mean from the get-go it we've met Fred been around know obviously his impact in the industry but I had no idea the the things he had been through but you know like Jeff said he mentions you in the book and I'm like oh my gosh you know he's there's Turner you know and it's but I think it's a must read for everybody. If if you if you enjoy bourbon in any degree to that it's I don't know if if you don't have it you should have that book it's it has a lot of great content.

SPEAKER_05 27:44

Oh and and have go ahead well just have I I I thought of like I I went to the book signing but these days for me to read a book I it's just like put the glass put the glasses on make sure there's enough light and by the time I do that I'm asleep it doesn't matter what kind of a book it is so having a book on tape and then going and when I travel being able to do it and then have him tell it in his own words but like I you know read it with him in his in his own words but when I was listening to that and I heard that all I'm gonna say is his ability to write in what that meaning was to him you know it and me knowing who you are what he was writing I could hear when he was talking about what you said to him I could hear you saying it to him just like when we were sitting at at dinner with uh Greg Schneider after we did the went through all those barrels and we're at a Mori and you just couldn't believe that you were having dinner with Greg Schneider at a Moray you're just like this is you know you you have a way of expressing yourself where people where it's like you put your heart out on your sleeve and you do a really good job and I look forward to any time I spend with you because I think you're a really cool individual. But that's enough of the Love Fest.

SPEAKER_02 29:12

Let's get back to the let's get back to the the whiskey wanted to tell you that in 1983 he got his MB MBA from Bellerman in one year seagrams paid for the every penny through the severance when he decided not to move to the New York corporate office.

SPEAKER_04 29:34

See we got we got me we got Greg we don't need Fred Fred's fine they should make a poster for Greg well I yeah well he his decision was right he that's one of the things he's you know said in the book it was the right decision he didn't need that right and he he's where he is so but Turner the talking about bottles so I know Jeff's probably already moved that direction but the one thing that I always like when I go on the website and you guys have so many different variations so the the Armagnacs so we we see Armagnac mostly in the bourbon world because people are using it as an X barrel influencing it with bourbon and and you get these they are what's that they say they are yeah right and then so you get that and you're like okay so it's an Armagnac finish or it might be but the and then Calvados has been obviously one that I really have drawn towards and I get that more I think Calvados probably the first one I had was at Starlight but that's what I'm sipping on now I switched over to the 16 year Armagnac the the one that I got from you the Domain de Cain is that am I saying that right? Yeah domain decom Domain de calm this is stupid yeah wait is that it's so dumb did did he is that your sample he sent you no I sent out some varieties of samples okay no this one is the one I bought because I've drank almost half of it but it actually had a wax top and everything but I think it's still on the website isn't it I think we've got a couple more bottles left so this if you have any uh I mean anybody watching if if you like an Armagnac or if maybe you don't even know that you like Armagnac because I think there's never Armagnac like yeah they've had cognac and they're like oh I like cognac I think this is even takes it up a notch I mean you tell me what do you think Turner I so cognacs are traditionally bottled around 40 to 45% ABV.

SPEAKER_00 31:53

So the story of Wayward Cask is what is Armanac Jordan my partner Jordan Morris and Ted Huber and I were sitting on the Huber estate drinking some rose as the sun sets and the Ted Huber cut his teeth as a brandy distiller before they started the Starlight distillery they were distilling brandy on site and Ted's favorite spirit is brandy he likes brandy more than he likes his rhymes and his bourbons so Ted fucking dares Jordan and I because we have an import permit he's like boy it'd be really cool

Armagnac Sourcing From Gascony Farmers

SPEAKER_00 32:39

if you guys could get your hands on some French brandies I got two kids at this time my daughter was one year old I'm like no hot no absolutely not Jordan does not have any kids so Jordan was like I love a challenge so there's some friends of ours out in the there's an online group called Serious Brandy and we knew some brokers so we connected some dots and we got a hold of a negotiant a broker his name's Greg War it's the greatest Frenchman I've ever known Greg War and us have a couple conversations and Greg War says yeah we've sold you guys you know we've sold a couple barrels into the US before so we've been buying and importing rum now for over eight years and the way that we operate with rum is we always want to maximize shipping costs. The only way to maximize shipping costs is to fill out a full container you got to fill out a full 40 foot container to reduce your per barrel shipping cost to make it affordable. If I'm shipping over one to five barrels I'm tacking on two to three to four K per barrel which makes it unaffordable so we said Gregor we don't want to buy five barrels we want to buy 40 plus and his eyes just lit up and I guess no one had really done that in the United States before so we started a relationship and we went over there and we've made three buys now where we're filling up containers of really unique and interesting Armagnacs and Armagnac is produced in the Gascony region of France which or French or France which is kind of like going to Kentucky or Ohio or southern Indiana. It's a bunch of fucking farmers it's not going to Paris bring your boots bring clothes that can get dirty you're going to guys cellars that also have you farm equipment your stacked manure it's not a clean and pristine process. So we went to hang out with French farmers and what we always attempt to do is it would be a little rude or disingenuous to just say sell me what you got from the 70s sell me what you got from the 80s. So they always ask for their young stuff can we try stuff from 2010 can we try more recent distillant we're very interested in the whole life cycle of Armagnac and what what an Armagnac is it's it's a French distilled brandy off an off of an obelisk still it's a type of plated copper pot still that none of these guys own there's one dude that owns a still that goes around the region from October through November and offers to distill their fermented wine so I also we also tried to apply for that job where we could just be the two Kentucky cowboys that drove a still spent our winters in France distilling we did not we did not get that job oh my so you're hanging out with these very most most of these guys are pig farmers they do grapes for other people's production they don't they're not trying to make a house brand they're not trying to create a brand the two biggest buyers of Armagnac are is actually in Macau China and Russia because Hennessy is taking over the American market and Hennessy is a cognac so they don't see a lot of value especially they don't love the three tier system so they don't see a lot of value in trying to create these relationships but when two guys show up saying they want to buy as much as they can and they'll do it at their cost it makes it affordable for the producer so we started to source Armagnacs from the Gascony region that have different terroirs different type of soils that the grapes are growing in a Ba Armagnac is a very sand soil it creates a different style of it creates a different flavor in the grape there's a lot there there's Baco grapes there's a lot of different grapes tenares appalacians have a much more intense and complex rich flavor. So even at 16 years of age Chris you get these amazing floral components with a nice aspect of the air dried barrel because they don't they don't char barrels and it's all French oak it's not american white oak so you get this very rich in floral and fruity flavor but it's still you still get the the sense of it being alcohol it's phenomenal it's I love that 16 year old from where that was produced by uh shit who produced that was that's the main to come yeah yeah the main to come yeah so and then Tiny and Super Nash they have the 42 year oh Jesus I will I do want to say that one too yes awesome so so first Greg Schneider says that he's known Ted Huber for 35 years and that he wants you Ted and him to do a collaborative effort.

SPEAKER_05 39:06

So that's what Greg's suggesting on the pot uh for that and then let's see Kirk tonight did a super chat and he said Turner you're welcome he lives in Wyoming I believe Montana is in Montana I think so anyways he's out west and he said you can be you're welcome around his fire anytime you're out west so there you go so yes I have this these this is a 42 year old Armagnac. That's what you're saying.

SPEAKER_00 39:41

And what region does this Armagnac come from this is a Bal Armagnac and what's unique about 1982 is it's considered to be one of the most sought after vintages of production because it was such a low grape yield that year. So there's very small amounts of armagnacs and brandies and cognacs produced in 1982. If you have a very low grape year let's say it's too hot or it can be too cold and you don't get a high production you're gonna have a much lower output. So it's a very sought after production run because it is so rare. What I love about it is that you know the French you know they use either toasted or seasoned oak French oak. They do not use charred oak. It's kind of like the scotch and the Irish you know that's why that they can age and mature alcohol so long without becoming it without it becoming pine salt or overly tannic or too bitter or just tasting like menthol yeah you so use barrels too they use yeah that makes sense so that's

A 42 Year Armagnac Breakdown

SPEAKER_00 41:23

why even at 42 years of age it's still is very pleasant. It still has this complex aroma it's it's velvety there are tobacco flavors that you have the rich leather you have the dark stewed fruit the French but you still have but and you have baking spice but it's not overly bitter or tannic.

SPEAKER_05 41:46

It's it's one of a kind it's so sweet and grapey 48 taste right on the on the front 48.6 proof yeah cast strength okay that's cast strength but it drinks like it's a cast strength bourbon I mean there's aspects that I pick up that I like in in it reminds me a lot of some of the things I like in barrel strength bourbons like bookers. Those there's flavors in there and there's a heat on it that's similar to that whiskey. I mean and it's all the stuff that I really like.

SPEAKER_00 42:29

That's that's kind of special I mean it 48.6 you would think you know but for it's it's I mean it's tech technically it's a brandy right it's in the brandy family yeah but it's the region where where it comes from and how they go how and the still it's distilled on okay and a lot of brandies or a lot of brandies and cognacs they do add water once they're going to bottling to proof it down to 40 or 42 our pitch to all of our suppliers was we want everything that is as close to or above 100 proof and we want no water add.

SPEAKER_05 43:17

Okay.

SPEAKER_04 43:18

Yeah well what a what a niche and then you know we don't have any of it but you've also got let's see you've got a Calvados bottle on your website so you're getting into like you said 40 SKUs.

SPEAKER_00 43:33

You've got a lot going on sitting in Starlight Indiana.

SPEAKER_04 43:42

Jeez all right this weekend trial so how boy you're just twisting his arm I mean it's it's only three hours I'll get there oh my god but next time you go hang out with the mean uh

SPEAKER_00 44:00

Which is I love Old Louisville and I love what you all do. I think the industry has had a couple of bad years, and we need all the advocates we can get. So the platform that you all have created and the brands that you all promote, whether it's old Louisville, whether it's Macaulay, whether it's Royce and the Neely family, Larrickin just the other day, you all you know, you all you all are spreading the gospel.

SPEAKER_02 44:35

That's right. Definitely.

SPEAKER_04 44:37

Well we appreciate it. It's it's the people is the big part. You know, the the the product's amazing and but people make everything. You know, it it's the experiences we've all had together, especially with you going through the climbing on barrels and then going to dinner. And I mean, it's just those those things are what stick in your brain. It's the bottles change and they come and go, but those memories of fellowship are totally different.

SPEAKER_00 45:07

Absolutely.

SPEAKER_05 45:08

Yeah, and I I mean, honestly, that's that's exactly it. That's why we like the spread. It's just like what what you found what we found out early on is that the people who are doing this are in many cases bourbon and whiskey fans like everybody else. I mean, Walter Zausch from Whiskey Thief, I mean, he still loves to taste everybody's stuff and get stuff, and he he loved doing barrel picks. And, you know, what Ed Blake from um Old Stubborn, I mean, he was doing the barrel pick program at at uh the the liquor store in Kentucky that he was working on, where he then now has so it's but it really comes down to I always say that the bourbon Ed bought Ed bought one of our first run single barrels in in Kentucky. It's yeah, he's a fan. He's what what he's doing. I mean, it just there's so many different levels of how people go about doing it. And you're doing something really unique. I mean, okay, so you have the Armin Armagnac in the what you at this point. How are you marketing it? I mean, how is it being distributed? Poorly. All right, well, we're we're gonna we're gonna we're gonna sell the shit out of this.

SPEAKER_00 46:24

So yeah, this this comes up often, and we we do a good job, we distribute it pretty well. I think we could do a better job. I think the price points for the age statements are phenomenal to sell a 42-year-old Armagnac for 160 bucks, I think is a steal.

SPEAKER_06 46:46

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 46:47

That's that's I think we have to do a I think the next evolution of what we do. And you know, Tani, you and I talked about this before we went live. Having day jobs makes things a little bit challenging for all parties, but we need to do a better job going live with the producers in France and our negotiants and having them tell the story. Because our pitch to them was we are not going to massage or make this better. What you've created is already phenomenal. All we are doing is bringing it to a new market, and there's other bottlers that have done it. Nicolas at PM Spirits has done a good job with Armagnacs. He introduced a very popular unaged A to A called Cobra Fire, which I love. You have Lion Cantata, which is an age, you have Delore, there's there's there's brands out there that are ahead of us. And we we appreciate all the cumulative effort. There are ways that we can do dinners, and you know, yeah, we should probably just bring a shit ton of bourbon on the banks, honestly.

SPEAKER_04 48:05

Yeah, yeah. Amen. Well, and it's just like that. Fortuitous union, honestly, is one of those bottles. I don't think anybody's gonna see it in the store and be like, oh, what the heck is this? And then read the label and be like, oh, I want to try that. I think it's definitely one of those things where if they try it, they're gonna be like, Yeah, I need that on my shelf, because that's that's a that's a weekend with friends and that bottle's gone.

SPEAKER_02 48:32

Yeah. No doubt.

SPEAKER_04 48:34

And and I think it it's like that with Armagnac. Armagnac is one of those that you don't get to try it very often. It's not like you can go into a bar and they ever even have an Armagnac, but when you have it, there's there's something about it that once once you've had it, it kind of is like, I want that again. I I need to have that again, especially with a cigar. Is as good as it gets. Where did you where did you try the 42-year? No, I'm not opening it till my birthday.

SPEAKER_05 49:11

I opened it because he's I've never had Armagnac, and I and I told Turner that, and he sent this, and I am grateful for it. I you probably wrecked me for the rest of my life. Because I'll probably not taste something like this ever again. I mean, it's it's it's fantastic. So thank you.

SPEAKER_04 49:37

Oh, yeah. I'm telling you, the the Armagnac with a cigar is is something I already tell the flavors just pairing so well.

SPEAKER_00 49:46

I always tell people once you once you get into Armagnac, you've like reached like the final boss of spirits. Like we all start this journey, and it starts somewhere, and then you get into you know scotch and Irish whiskies, and then bourbon, and then American whiskeys, and then American rice, and then American single malts, and then you get into tequilas, and then you slowly venture into rum. And once you get into Aubinnac, yourself looks like super nashes, and you're like, shit, I don't know where to put this.

SPEAKER_07 50:23

Like exactly.

SPEAKER_05 50:27

Well, this goes this goes in the the awesome bottles that I get from people within the industry, and the only thing that's missing is your signature, that's all. I'll get that.

SPEAKER_04 50:44

Yep. So so I have one question because you did send us one bottle that has me perplexed before we get no, not bourbon deluxe, because I actually the bourbon deluxe is fantastic, but there's another bottle, small batch rum through your rolling fork brand. But I'm I'm curious and I'm hopeful that the name is just a journey, not because that's what's spinning used to Aves this thing. So Nash, Nash knows what I'm talking about because it's not the game work.

SPEAKER_02 51:23

I just caught it because I'm reading down the label, and as soon as you got it out of your mouth, I come across that on the label.

SPEAKER_04 51:30

And Turner did such a nice job with the artwork, like he made it look like the tree of life and this barrel and all this. And it's it's such a nice looking bottle, and then it gets down to this Odyssey that I'm like what are you trying to do to me?

SPEAKER_00 51:46

But so okay, Ambarana is a Brazilian oak, and the humors are the one that started this whole two-year blip where there was a craze for it, and then it got overused and overmarketed. And Amberana Oak is a great Brazilian oak that can mask really shitty whiskey, and we blew up the category and we ruined it all within 18 months.

SPEAKER_05 52:19

There's only a few.

Amburana Rum Experiments And Barbados Picks

SPEAKER_04 53:19

Yeah, it's it's got some some it it has.

SPEAKER_05 53:25

He says the issue, the issue with that one is it's 120. You mean it's gonna it drinks softer than what it is, so you bet it better watch off.

SPEAKER_00 53:34

It's hot. No, it's not, it's it's hot.

SPEAKER_05 53:38

I think I mean if there's anything to say, and this is what I was thinking that how Amberana would pair it with rum, it would it wouldn't just be like cinnamon toast crunch. It would actually taste exactly like cinnamon toast crunch. And I would have to say, when I when I taste this, that the vanilla aspect and then the cinnamon and how the the aspect of what so cinnamon toast crunch to me as a cereal has always been, I've always stayed away from it because if I have a box, there's a flavor that hits my brain that I just eat the whole damn box. I just will that's the only cereal that I'll have bowls with mixing it with milk. So this this has the feeling that the the you know, like the the creaminess and everything that when you do eat the cereal, and the first thing that it did is hit that thing in my brain where all I want to do is just keep having more. So yeah, that's that's exactly off of one sip. It just it there is a flavor on that that always for me, so I you know, my wife would want to buy it. I'm like, no, she's gonna buy that. I'll just eat it all. The kids will get none.

SPEAKER_00 55:02

That's that you gotta whiskies, whiskies and in grain-based spirits are very oily, they're very thick, oily, slightly viscous. Rom is a very delicate product because it comes from a sugar cane. The Amberano is very aggressive, but it's also very delicate. And when you combine whiskey and ambirana, it there's some people that have done it very well. There's a lot of people that have really ruined it for the rest of us. But it can be a very oily and poorly tasty young alcohol with a cinnamon finish.

SPEAKER_05 55:48

I understand for this. Did they wreck it? Did they really? I mean, did they really wreck the category or did the cat they explode the category that there's a certain amount of people who are not whiskey fans that like flavored whiskey, where that just is where it just I mean, anywhere anybody does an Ambarana, they're selling out still, you know. You know, they can't keep it. So, yes, I think it could be over Ambirana for our palettes and whatever, but overall, it seems like the gen they they tap more into that 80% of you know Jim Beam and Jack Daniel drinkers. Don't you agree? I'm gonna go back. Did you like this, CT? Can I go back to the CT? Did you like it?

SPEAKER_04 56:38

Did was it I'm gonna go back to the Barbados nine-year rum that I have here from Rolling Fork? I love this. This is good. You didn't like the Amberana too much?

SPEAKER_02 56:51

Right there, CT. That's very good. Yeah, that that's good. Yeah, that's Barbados nine year.

SPEAKER_04 56:59

Weeded out of a weeded Bergen test. So that is this a William LaRue Weller? This is O R V W, Turner.

SPEAKER_02 57:09

Old Rip Van Winkle.

SPEAKER_04 57:11

Oh yeah. Old Rip Van Winkle. This is a crappy barrel. Yeah.

SPEAKER_05 57:16

No, and I will say, Mark Super Nash was able to get me this one. Because you know, you had sent up initially the Indiana Barbados nine year for that, the for the last podcast, and that was delicious. But when Super Nash was saying that he was able to get that one, the old Rip Van Winkle, we were like, Yes.

SPEAKER_02 57:44

I grabbed two of them. And thank you. Hell yeah, brother. That's what it's all about, right? Old this this junior and this Karen. Where was mine, Nash? Well, I thought you already had one. Uh-huh. If I would have sent you up one, you never would have cracked yours.

SPEAKER_05 58:10

Wait a second. He already does have one. Yeah. I know. So that on. Oh, that's good. Man. I I just, you know, Turner, so before I got into whiskey, my my in the in the 90s, I would have been more I was always into rums. It was I liked pretty much any kind of rum. It did it spiced rum. You know, it I like certain spice rums. I liked I liked it flavored. I mean, Bacardi Lyman, Bacardi Lemon, it didn't matter. I just what I liked about drinking rum is I could just drink it, and I never had to worry about anything. I never got hungover from rum. I would drink a lot of rum and I would wake up the next day as if I didn't drink at all. For whatever reason, I always said I could have been a pirate because I could have drank the rum on the ship and not fallen over, I would have been fine all along. But but when I got into whiskey, you kind of get away from it because when you're so hard, you know, hard and heavy into, you know, and tasting, and you know what it's like to be a blender and how much you taste and how much, and you always gotta watch that you're not letting it, you don't ever want to get have it get out of control. So, but I would have to say what you're doing here by mixing in the rums in the in the bourbon barrels and everything that you're doing, it really brings out to the why I loved rum. The flavors, that van those vanillas and all that flavor. It's it's a very, it's a delicious spirit, really.

SPEAKER_02 59:59

Greg said he's he thinks he's got some armanac in his basement that was bottled in the 1960s. Phenomenal. Yeah. Cheers, Greg. Have a great weekend. Happy Father's Day, Greg. And happy Father's Day, Greg. Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:00:16

Happy Father's Day. To the guy that's responsible, or partly responsible for Russell's reserve, everybody.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:23

Absolutely. Yeah, not yeah, definitely. Yes.

unknown 1:00:28

Okay.

SPEAKER_02 1:00:29

We got a question from Kirk. This I mean the do you the Barbados here produce a white like a Kirk has a right up front, you get molasses and brown sugar, but it finishes like a red hot sweet candy.

SPEAKER_05 1:00:50

So we got Kirk. Can you guys hear me? Yeah. Okay. So we got Kirk on another super trap. He says, Do you produce a white rum? Aruba does a great one. Do you just have a white rum that you guys put out, or is it all things?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:09

We have an unaged organic cane rum from Paraguay on the website at rollingfork rum.com or rollingforkspirits.com. 121 proof unaged organic cane rum from Paraguay. It's a fruit bomb for 25 bucks.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:29

It's rum, yes, yes.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:31

And while you're there and you're picking that up, buy that 16-year Armagnac and you can thank me later. It's a no-brainer. And probably go ahead and get a bottle of Fortuitous Union because that's a no-brainer.

SPEAKER_05 1:01:46

Yep. So what batch are you on now?

SPEAKER_00 1:01:49

Is this is is it we we will be on batch four?

SPEAKER_05 1:01:55

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 1:01:56

We just sold out of our allotment of batch three. That took two years, so we'll take our time and we'll release batch four someday.

SPEAKER_05 1:02:13

Okay. Do you get a lot of questions about that?

SPEAKER_00 1:02:19

Not a lot. The bartenders love it. The bartender crowd loves it the most. To Chris's point earlier, I generally don't sell it to you if you don't have a tasting bar. And my pitch is if you pick up a case, I'll buy a bottle and let you use it as a taster. Because your audience isn't going to naturally gravitate towards this and just pick it up. And you know, even though it's won awards and it's I think it's unique and it's a standalone spirit that there's really no competition, it's it's hard to get people to gravitate towards without getting them to try it. And once they try it, they're out.

unknown 1:03:05

Yeah.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:05

So are you planning on you? We made the mention of bourbon on the banks. Are you planning on being there?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:12

I am gonna do my best to be there.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:15

That would be awesome. We we we obviously will be there set up uh along with everybody else that is around. But you got K KBF at one point on your radar?

SPEAKER_00 1:03:27

We will be, this will be the first year that we'll be at the KBF.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:30

That's what I thought I that you told us. Yeah, so we're gonna see.

SPEAKER_07 1:03:43

Great.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:43

Right, and it is phenomenal.

SPEAKER_05 1:03:47

I uh that's uh honestly, I've had Armagnac finishes that have been spectacular, and that's one, that's one of my you know, I think it was MG, it was Old Elk with when we did the barrel selection for Old Elk with Greg Metz. He basically was there and he had those Armagnac finished barrels, and they were and every one that we tasted was phenomenal. I mean, we tasted through 34 barrels, and I think they they bought 32 of them.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:21

Don't you have a heaven William Heavenhill Armanac finished? I have not. Did they do one? One fits in that one, I think. That's what I was wondering. I thought, Jeff, it was like batch 14, the William Heavenhill. What's that one that you got, Jeff? With the red, the William Heavenhill with the red label that you you failed to open for a couple months, and then we all tasted it.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:46

Oh, the four are you talking about not you're talking about the Parker Heritage?

SPEAKER_02 1:04:51

Yeah, the Parker Heritage.

SPEAKER_05 1:04:54

I think that was a let's see. I don't know if they let's see. You're talking. It's okay. We we love dogs. Sit down, Lou. No, this one, this one was a 14-year-old Kentucky straight malt whiskey finished in a reconstructed heavy toast cognac barrel. Cognac barrel, okay. It was cognac. And honestly, I didn't know what to make of it. I was a I won the that's the only time I've I've gotten selected for a bottle in the Ohio lottery, right? And so I bought it and then I opened it, and it was it's it's quite good. As you know, there's a lot of surprises happening in the industry lately, wouldn't you say?

SPEAKER_00 1:05:48

There's a lot of good, well aged alcohol out there for purchase, and it's gonna be that way for the next couple years. And then in about four years, we'll be in a shortage.

SPEAKER_05 1:06:04

It's how it how this industry works. Yeah. Like a roller coaster. But I was surprised at how fast it can turn. I mean, it it's it I was expecting just two years ago, you would not have thought we would be here. And I just try and explain to the listeners all the time. They're all they're all worried about some, you know, they're worried about it. I'm like, what are you worried about? That the price will go down for better, if you're gonna get better stuff cheaper. It's it's not like it's gonna be the 1970s where it's all gonna go to shit and everybody's gonna it but you have to know what you're doing, as you know, you have to know what you're doing and you have to have a plan and you got to be really invested. And if you were doing this for other reasons than anything I just said, it's hard to keep going. I mean, those there's people that have dropped off, but most of the people that are drop that have dropped off or done stuff, uh I've kind of like either they were late to the game or they did weren't good business people, or they weren't weren't, you know, the industry, they didn't treat the industry with the respect that you expect that everybody else does.

SPEAKER_00 1:07:19

You know, you see all of it, you know, you can well, so the past two years, 33% of DSPs went out of operation. And all

The Whiskey Market Turns And Why

SPEAKER_00 1:07:32

and you know, if you were a contract producer at or a contract client at Barcelona Burbank Company, you could have your own DSP. So it's not like you owned a facility, right? But if you and we all and then you had a lot of you know contract houses be built thinking that that that life cycle was gonna sustain itself, and then that didn't work. And so if you if you became over-leveraged with debt, you finance, you bought into the game uh after 2021, and you went debt heavy because someone convinced you that that the valuation of alcohol was appreciating or was outpacing the stock market, and it was giving you 18% year-over-year growth, but you didn't have an exit strategy because you are there's only two ways to exit. You either create a brand and then start bottling liquid under the brand, and then you have to have a marketing and a sales plan to go out and distribute the alcohol, or you resell the alcohol to other producers, or you sell it back to your original producer, and those last two options dried up, and we had an overproduction of alcohol, which is great for me. I'm benefiting from this crisis, so you had to be able to be savvy. We've made a lot of really bad business decisions. Starting a rum company in 2014 and 2015 instead of just buying MGP and bottling that was a bad business decision. I would have yacht money already. If I had just got on MGP before it got popular, I would be rich as hell. But you have to be really conscious of how you are going to monopolize this investment and not just invest in or take on debt and hope that the current market plan that was the end of COVID is going to continue because we all stopped getting free money. And a lot of us bought a lot of the bottles we wanted over the past decade, so we're a little more judicious on our wallet spinning. If you look at the overall data, people are people spend about is down about 40%, and their buying frequency is down about 33%. So you have to give something that's unique, attractive, and is a value, which is what we're seeing the larger producers doing.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:24

Right.

SPEAKER_00 1:10:25

So can't fault anybody, but yeah, you have to one it is the market, it's gonna do what it does.

SPEAKER_05 1:10:32

I mean, that when it comes to the unique part of it, you know, the stuff that that people chase, allocated stuff and everything. I really haven't seen that drop off. I mean, people are still chasing those bottles, and they're still, but where you see it is like for me, for instance, it's kind of like I got out of Elijah Craig barrel proof at, you know, when I've had when I had six or seven bottles. I mean, you the you can only sustain three bottles a year for a couple years, where then all of a sudden it's not like you're drinking the whole bottle, and all of a sudden you have all these Elijah Craig barrel proofs everywhere. Same thing. And at one point, you just you kind of got to stop. You know, same thing, small bats tailor. I mean, I have six, I I got a half dozen. I I went to see, I like to give it have that because it's a good thing to give away for the holidays. It's a good bottle that some of my friends can't get. So I always, but uh, and when you're in line now, you can get that regularly. It's almost back on the shelf, in my opinion. But what what what the overall thing is is that the bourbon people start having enough of the bottles that they were chasing. You know, the first time you tried to get barrel-proof tailor, it's like I missed it like seven times and I finally got one. But I have two now, and if I want to get three, four, and five, I can, but I don't have a need for it with all the whiskey here to go get three, four, and five, you know, where you know, that's really, I think, affecting it at this point. I think a lot of the kind of the bourbon people that got in, they've much, their collections have matured. You know, when you first start out, you can't believe you get these bottles, right? Because this is what you're looking for. And the newer people coming in, it was such a rush off of COVID that there's not that has just dropped off. They're still coming in, don't get me wrong, but that's dropped off, that's for sure.

SPEAKER_00 1:12:35

Well, and and that's the economy does play a part. You know, when costs go up, you when costs go up, you know, people's incomes are not, you're not getting raises that equivocate to the cost increases for groceries. You know, you're not getting a three to five percent bump in raise, but the costs in groceries go up eight percent, you're being more judicious. And all our lives looked at us and we're like, quit buying this shit.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:10

You're absolutely just you no, but but me and you can tell me and CT kind of listens, but Nash doesn't.

SPEAKER_02 1:13:18

I was a little yeah, I was a little bit hard-headed on that. Matter of fact, I talked to her and then let me move it in the dining room. I got no more room in the bedroom.

SPEAKER_05 1:13:30

I I would say Turner, now I'm you we're we're kind of unique, but for me, and I think CT2, I to go out and buy bourbon almost is ridiculous with the amount of bourbon that people are sending us now to taste and and you know, and go through. So, you know, it's not like I take those bottles and throw them away. It's just like, yeah, and there are a lot of in this country, there is a lot of good distillers and blenders where their stuff, you know, those craft distillers, their stuff is starting to come to the maturity level where they've got stock of really, really their own stuff, you know. Now there's a lot, then there's the blenders. I mean, you know, Mark Carter and you know Macaulay, they're just producing massive amounts. There was a Virginia distillery that I've just tasted, and they've won some awards that I'm gonna have the master distiller on coming up, but I never heard of them before I got their bottles. I mean, you just it's just amazing how many people are out there and what the industry has come. But speaking of the the the whole the bourbon deluxe, and you were talking about this, and this is you this was your introductory into the bourbon industry, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:14:51

That is the finality of Bourbon Deluxe coming back home under a waffin, which we were the founders of that in 1913.

SPEAKER_05 1:15:10

That's really cool.

SPEAKER_00 1:15:11

So that's our pinnacle of reacquiring one of the most prominent whiskey brands that existed in the 50s and 60s, and having the opportunity to try to revitalize it and bring it back to life under our tutelage.

SPEAKER_04 1:15:33

So, turn or not the road, I'd say where it's from or any of that. Green River. Okay. So is it how many barrels? Okay, so now that we know that, but how many barrels make up because I have two different batches of bourbon deluxe. And it's saying it's single barrel. Is it truly one barrel or what what that's a single barrel? Okay, all right. So so the other one I have that's 114 proof is a single barrel. Okay. Yeah, they're they're great. Again, this is what I talked about with the state of Ohio that I wish that would be in the state of Ohio. I think the label is great, it's an eye catcher. People see that they're that's definitely it draws you in. You're you're gonna want to figure out what that is.

SPEAKER_00 1:16:28

I mean, who doesn't want that for 65 bucks?

SPEAKER_04 1:16:30

Yeah, it's a great, great, great bottle. Tastes great. Great

Bourbon Deluxe Revival And Wathen History

SPEAKER_04 1:16:35

label, it tastes great.

SPEAKER_05 1:16:37

I mean, honestly, so when when uh Aaron Harris initially went to Green River and we went there, I think it would it would be two Kentucky Bourbon Festivals ago, we went to Green River and visited him and did a podcast, but he took us through the barrels. You know, we got to go in the Rick House and thieved, we thieved from some barrels, and the stock that they had was very, very impressive. And he was in he was really happy with it. So when you were when you were picking barrels for bourbon deluxe, did you go there? Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:17:12

So by okay, so I'm gonna take about a five-minute pause to tell how we got to Green River. And I never really told this story, but this is still the story that I intend to tell over and over again. So Rolling Fork is named after the Rolling Fork distillery that was started in 1878. So four years before Kentucky was a state by Henry Hudson Waffin, who my son is named after, who's my great-grandfather seven generations removed. So when you think about 1878, we're talking pre-industrial age, we're talking the frontier times of whiskey. We're not no one had brands. Elijah Craig didn't burn down his down his shed yet to char a barrel, which there's some ambiguity there. But you're talking about the very beginning times of the frontier era of moving past the eastern coast and bringing settlers into the Midwest. And Henry was had milling experience from by way of Maryland, and we had distilling and milling experience by way of England. So Henry moves to Lebanon, Kentucky, where he's granted land on the junction of the Rolling Fork and Salt Lake Rivers. He builds a grist mill, he starts milling, he starts distilling. He can go through about 25 bushels of corn a month. A bushel of corn can produce about 2.5 liters of alcohol. So if you think about the production of alcohol today, that guy could make one barrel a month and use it for trade in butter. So he would trade it off to merchants who then would retrade it, but it would, that was your monetary ecosystem. You weren't flipping out dollar bills, you were trading bartery. Henry goes on to have two sons, Richard Nichols Waffin and John Bernard Waffin. This is where shit gets interesting. Richard Nichols was one of the first frontiermen to create a wood, a wooden log still. We even helped the Dant family make their wooden log still. So the way you do it is you hollow out a poplar log still, you stack it, and you run piping through that can create steam. Your beer warp is in the bottom, and then it steams up and then cools down, and your alcohol forms in the top part and it condenses over. So you're talking about one of the very most frontier families in American whiskey. Then Richard Nichols goes on to have five sons. Another guy by the name of John Bernard's. This guy, John Bernard, is born in 1844, Dr. W. H. Wathen, 1846, another Richard Nichols Jr. 1847, Martin Athanasius Waffen, who's my great-grandgrandfather, who went down Natchez Trace and acquired the Hayden family distillery and the old granddad brand in 1891. This is my why. This is why I do all this shit. But this third generation now formulated a brand. They created the first brand, and we created the rolling fork brand. We also were one of the first investors to build the Cumberland Distillery, and then we acquired the old granddad brand in the late 1890s. Well, John Bernard moves from after the Civil War, we moved from Lebanon to Louisville, Kentucky. We closed down the Rolling Fork Distillery, and I actually caught on fire, and we opened up the J.B. Watten Company in the 1890s. What's interesting about the J.B. Wathan Company is we were the first family in Kentucky to erect a continuous column still in the 1890s. Now we're in the industrial age. No one had done that before. So we moved our production to Louisville, Kentucky, and then we were one of the first families to build a continuous column still in the state. JB goes on to have three sons. One of them was named R. E. Wathen. This is now we're on the fourth generation of whiskey producers in the state of Kentucky. We're talking in the late 1890s.

unknown 1:22:17

R.

SPEAKER_00 1:22:17

E. Wathan or Richard Eugene Wathan goes on to create the R. E. Wathing Company. We had storefronts on first in Maine in Louisville, Kentucky, where we were running Old Grandad over to St. Louis, over to D.C., down to Louisiana. Other brands that we had in the R. E. Wathen Company included Old Pep, Black Gold, Everglade, Farm Dale Rye, Honeycomb, Hospitality, Old Hospitality, Kentucky Credential, and then a brand we just released called Ruco Rye, which is the R. E. Wathen Company rye. We released Ruco Rye in 1906 to combat the abundance of Maryland and Pennsylvania ryes that existed in the market because they were predominantly the only standard rye brands that existed came out of generally Maryland and Pennsylvania. If you're in Kentucky, you're predominantly using corn.

SPEAKER_06 1:23:17

Yep.

SPEAKER_00 1:23:19

Also, in this time, in 1913, a guy by the name of Milton Epstein wanted to contract a brand. And he contracted my great uncle, three times removed, Richard Eugene Wathen. And they created the Bourbon Deluxe brand. The brand ran in existence for a little bit by Milton Epstein, only using our family stocks. But then we acquired the brand back at the start of the Tea Leaves of Prohibition. At the same time, my great-aunt Florence was married to the Medleys to create a bourbon merger who operated what is now today the Green River Distillery. It was operated as the old Medley Distillery. The Medleys ran Owensboro. We ran Louisville. So the merger never existed, but the marriage stayed well intact. But I've been very close to a lot of Medleys. So when we decided to source alcohol from a Kentucky producer, we thought it fit. Not only does Green River, I think, produce some of the best alcohol that is on the market today. We also have family ties to it. And that is why we started a contract production with the Green River Distiller.

SPEAKER_02 1:24:48

That's a great story. Yeah. Yeah. That's a lot of history. That's awesome.

SPEAKER_05 1:24:53

Yeah. That is. So you're actually that's your that's your that that's your distiller. That you're actually producing white dog and aging it now.

SPEAKER_00 1:25:05

We we have some contract runs with them now, but you know, I didn't do this six years ago. So we went and met with them two years ago. We were able to walk the ricks and look at particular mash bills and lots, and we found a certain segment of four or five lots that we really, really liked, which is what you all are tasting today. Most of what we're pulling in is a 70-21-9. We're also pulling in a 70-13 mash bill, and then now we're also sourcing in 95-5 Green River Rot, which is dull. It's very good. And I mean, maybe we'll get to source some of their weeded down the road. But I I love, I mean, what their four year they're producing at $40 is phenomenal.

SPEAKER_07 1:26:02

Yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:02

Their honeycomb is great. Like, I think, you know, I think under their merger of lofted spirits, I think they're hitting the nail on the hat.

SPEAKER_05 1:26:13

Yeah. Yeah, definitely. All right. So we went through pretty much, we we've covered it. Uh what you've got. I mean, we're talking, you've got now bourbon deluxe. You're you're starting to produce your own stuff through through the that that's that's amazing. Uh what's that like, real quick? I mean, is that kind of cool to actually have something distilled with everything you've got, you pick, you guys went through, pick out a mash bill, and then know that those barrels that you know that that are laid down are gonna come and you that's a part of something instead of purchasing, you made it.

SPEAKER_00 1:26:57

It's it's not our first rodeo. We've done some contract runs with Royce Neely.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:04

Okay. And maybe if I that was that was rum, right?

SPEAKER_00 1:27:09

You guys were doing a lot of we've done rum and we've done some American light whiskey.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:13

I remember seeing the posts on the rum. Distilling rum's a lot different, or fermenting rum is a lot different than fermenting that that fermentation process that you guys did there was kind of you you document, if I'm not mistaken. I mean, you there was a couple social media posts on it, what it was, what it does in the fermenter.

SPEAKER_00 1:27:35

We've done, and someone can refute me or correct me, but I'll stand on this. I've done the long we've done the longest fermented rum in the history of the United States of America. Awesome. We did a 41 day fermentation, not on purpose.

SPEAKER_05 1:27:58

God, I love you, man.

Contract Distilling And A 41 Day Ferment

SPEAKER_05 1:28:03

But honestly, that is more classic fermentation of the frontier. I mean, that was, you know, that was something that on the frontier people don't realize the yeast. A lot of times there's sometimes you just put every that they would put everything into a big batch and just let it sit outside till it fermented. So there the first fermentation off the Mayflower that year, it didn't. They put everything in thinking they were going to distill. And they basically had to do it again the next year because it winter came and it never caught.

SPEAKER_00 1:28:39

Well, so that's that's that's part of the reason why it uh we allowed it to uh go 41 days was we did it right before Thanksgiving, and we wanted to run a 14-day fermentation, and then it got cold as hell, and so then we let it run up to over 20 days, and then Royce went uh with his wife to South Dakota, and then they got caught in a snowstorm in South Dakota, so then he couldn't come back, and then it by the time that he came back, it was after New Year's, and we're like, Oh my god, we had and it helped like to say that. I mean, it helped that it was wintertime because if it was summertime, it probably would be just a standard 14-day fermentation. And we walked away saying, We are never doing this in the winter again. And Royce was like, I'll never contract run rum for you guys in the winter again, and we all shook hands and agreed on that.

SPEAKER_05 1:29:43

That's that's the live and learn thing, right? I mean, not that it was it's a it's that it's a bad thing, it's just that that's not realistically, what would you say, a really good blueprint on what you do need to do to make money.

SPEAKER_00 1:30:01

No, no, we are we we have not over-leveraged ourselves with debt, so we are able to continue this journey. As I tell my wife, she is very wealthy in liquid assets, but we are not a good business model.

SPEAKER_04 1:30:24

But but it works because we're a fun one. Yeah, but I think that that's the thing. Like you you look at people that are making it, people that are not. You make it not just because of your family's history in the bourbon world, but it's it's you. It's it's the fact that you get out and do things like this, you promote your brand, and you're very passionate about it. And I remember one of the first things we talked about back years ago was that you didn't use and want to be just a wat, like just to be using that name brand, and you wanted to create your own path, and that's the rum began that path for you. And and now to see you with 40 skews, it's like, dude, you're it's it's no mistake that you are where you are, you know.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:14

Yes, for torturous fortuitous union was a mistake, but most of this is but but in defense of Turner, it wasn't hit, it wasn't his mistake.

SPEAKER_04 1:31:27

It's not like he made the mistake, it's like so and it was sometimes sometimes good things happen to good people, and and mistakes can be good, you know. And I think that's the thing. Like, you look at that and you're like, why did this happen? And it happened to somebody that it was supposed to happen to.

SPEAKER_05 1:31:45

Well, but Turner, you're you know, the people you meet in the industry and everybody that goes about plays plays such a special part of what you're what you're trying to do. When you meet the right people, it seems like, and when you think back of how you meet them, it seems like there's a path that you're on, you know what I mean? That that you're going through. I when I was talking to Greg Keeley a couple days ago on the podcast, he was talking about the same thing. They bought that land over where they bought it by Wild Turkey, not knowing realistically what they actually were doing. You know, Greg Greg Schneider knew the people who were in the building where they're at. And, you know, they bought it, but they didn't realize how beneficial that was going to be as far as their their place on the Kentucky bourbon path and right next to Wild Turkey. And they had no idea Jimmy Russell would accept it to the point where when he's in the in the gift shop, he'll send people over there. It's just like that's kind of how this industry works, right? You meet those, it's the relationships and the people and how you keep going through that path. And I suppose you transfer it over that whiskey farm thing over into France and meet those same distilling just seems to produce and have the people in most for the most part of those people who are hardworking, close to the ground, kind people there when you meet them. You know, it's just friendships are made all throughout the industry. It's it's not an in, you know, I've been in other industries, and the percentage of the people that are grounded and what they're doing is way more in this industry than I've than any any other industry that I've you know been associated with. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_00 1:33:48

Yeah, I I yeah, I look at the three gentlemen that I'm sharing this podcast with. We're all we're all gonna have to wake up tomorrow and go to work. And I think there's a great humbleness that exists in this industry, which is reflected in Fred's book, where we are all we all had to cut our teeth. Nothing we didn't wake up bajillionaires, and I don't think you can fake this industry, and I think this industry can sniff you out faster than just about any other industry.

SPEAKER_05 1:34:35

Good point. I agree.

SPEAKER_04 1:34:39

Yeah, so before we close, Turner, because you're probably gonna go into uh your your website. I think it's important for people to know that are they watching or watch this later, your website's pretty simple, it's just rollingfork spirits.com. But this is especially important in states like Ohio, where we have had the rolling fork rum, the state of Ohio brought in some, but we haven't had a lot lately. So if you are looking and you want to purchase, whether it be bourbon deluxe, which isn't necessarily on the website right now because it's not available, but the rum, the armignacs that we've talked about, the calvados that we've talked about, the cane juice from Paraguay, there's some uh 13-year-old Sazerac barrel that's got uh Trinidad rum in it. You've got some crazy things, and I think when you go down through this list, it's like wow, this is this is some fun stuff. A 1990 Calvados pays the agu. How is it? Os Doge. Os Doge, and then a 16-year single cast of tin cane. I mean, you've got some crazy things on here that you guys ship to do you ship to every state in the United States?

SPEAKER_00 1:36:05

We ship to every state, but uh we ship to over 37 states, Ohio being one of them. Actually, you all are one of our best sh uh states on our website.

SPEAKER_04 1:36:15

Okay. So if you're looking for some of this and you don't find it, which is the

Where To Buy Rolling Fork And Final Notes

SPEAKER_04 1:36:21

point of this, is it's on the website. You can buy it. You can you even have a bundle. I saw that that was on social media a little while back, but you get a a bundle, a six-year Dominican single cast and a Trinidad rum and a 13-year-old Sazrak barrel, and you get that twin pack for like 110 bucks instead of 153.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:44

Well, we'll uh we'll probably be doing a massive sale in the next four to six weeks.

SPEAKER_06 1:36:50

Nice.

SPEAKER_00 1:36:51

But but if you are looking at some of our more interesting spirits, speaking of that 16-year 10 game, that distillery is now defunct. There's less than 300 casks that exist in the open market. So, again, what we try to purvey is truly one of kind spirits that we think are very authentic and are unique in nature to your standard bar. We want to give, we want to help accentuate whatever you have on your back bar, and we will we promise to make you feel cool. But if you go to our website and you can't, we can't ship to your state, just ping us on Instagram, we'll reply, we'll let you know where you can find us. We're distributed in over 18 states, soon to be 19 once we figure out Ohio. And we would like, you know, we want to be available to anyone that wants to that wants to find uh a piece of rolling fork.

SPEAKER_04 1:37:51

You've had product on Sealbox too, though, haven't you? Uh huh. Yeah, bourbon deluxe, I think, when it came out the first couple times. How how soon should we see another bourbon deluxe? Really soon. Okay, so be on the lookout for bourbon deluxe because if you want that, and the price point of that, 69?

SPEAKER_00 1:38:09

Yeah, under the the single barrels are under 70 bucks. They eat your small batch, which so Fred Fred is a little bit of kind of like a muse to me. We don't talk all the time, but when he talked about how I inadvertently helped him, he's done that a lot for me in a lot of ways. When we started in Rum, he had just written Rum Curious. And I'm like, Oh Fred, we know each other. Do you want to help me? Crickets. And later I run into him, and I'm like, dude, what the hell? He's like, Well, I pissed a lot of people off with Rum Curious, so I kind of had to, I kind of had to duck my head underwater for a little bit because I told the world how people add sugar to rum, and it pissed a lot of producers off. So I kind of he got almost blacklisted from the rum world because he wrote a very honest book about it. Then we go and do a podcast, and I didn't know he was gonna be at the podcast, but he was there and we start talking about our lives, and I bring up jujitsu and I was like, oh, I see you're doing this shit. Like, I I want to get into that. So then we start doing jujitsu together for two years, and now we'll text sporadically. I've been out of it for a little bit because I fractured my elbow, but now we'll text sporadically, but it's all about jujitsu, it's not about alcohol or what I'm doing with my brand. Or he's never like, hey, I'm gonna promote your brand. He never says that because he's very authentic to the fact that he has to be agnostic to the industry. So one day he's like, Hey, I need two bottles of your eight-year small batch. I'm like, okay. He's like, Well, you're gonna be in my top 100 Burdons of the year. I was like, Okay, are you just trying me to get to get me to enter this shit into the ascots? He's like, maybe, I don't know, but it you have to give me two bottles. So it turns out we ended up getting uh number nine on his top 100 of Bourbons of the Year last year. And next batch is even better. It's gonna be phenomenal. It'll be it'll be out in August, but then we'll have for the Kentucky Burman Festival at Armagnac finished, and then you might want to look out on Sealbox in the next eight to ten weeks for I don't know, maybe some 10-year wild turkey. I don't know. I don't know. Just look for it.

SPEAKER_05 1:40:42

Just look for it. That's yeah.

SPEAKER_06 1:40:46

That uh that sounds like sounds like Will Farrell. I don't know. We'll just we'll just have to see. Mom, meatloaf! Meatloaf! Yeah, you want some meatloaf?

SPEAKER_04 1:41:01

That's awesome. Well, yep, everything is going in the right direction, Turner. That's the that's the great thing about this. You guys are are kicking butt and keep moving the envelope. I love it. So thank and thank you again for sending what you sent. It will be shared and among many people.

SPEAKER_00 1:41:22

So well, yeah, if you want to find us, follow us on Instagram at rolling fork spirits. We do stupid shit. Check us out on rollingforkrum.com. But most importantly, you know, what you guys do at the Scotchy Bourbon Boys Podcast is you know, whether it's myself or Macaulay or all of the fine producers that get to connect with you all, we don't really exist in this climate without you all. So we're all an ecosystem. This is a community. We are all about sharing. That's what I'm passionate about. And I'm just deeply appreciative. I will always come on, but more importantly, I can't wait to get you guys back to Starlight Indiana and we'll uh rip it up.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:14

That would that would that would be amazing, especially if we can bring Greg Schneider. Oh, Greg will be there. Well, and then if Greg's there, I'm sure Ted's gonna be there.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:24

It it could be, you know, a good Ted can't miss out on a good time if he knows you're there, he's coming because he just he's there anyway.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:32

Where is hideaway? When he has to work and we show up, his excuses to come and just talk not.

SPEAKER_04 1:42:40

Turner, I hear I enjoyed every four tonight.

SPEAKER_00 1:42:44

Thank you very much.

SPEAKER_05 1:42:47

For sure. I was wondering who that was over there. I did not know Andrew was over there. So he's high now.

SPEAKER_02 1:42:54

I saw him commenting on it the whole time, so I knew I knew who it was. And I'd I'd just like to say to everybody that's watching and listening up there tonight that to get out to your local liquor store or your ABC store, whatever it may be. Go check them out and ask for a rolling pork rum and deluxe bourbon when it gets out there. And uh, but uh just go out to your local liquor store and check with them, talk with them, see if they got it. They might have it. And if they don't, put in a good word for them and see if they can get it to you.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:28

Fred the well.

SPEAKER_02 1:43:29

That's how we grow. Yep.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:32

Thank you, Turner. I appreciate it very much. Well, this is your brother. Thank you, brother. A lot of great content in a short, well, in almost two hours.

SPEAKER_00 1:43:42

But I I'm not keeping you till midlife, like Macaulay. I know you're not going to be able to do it.

SPEAKER_04 1:43:45

Yeah, well, Macaulay, you're you're not going to bed. It's a it's an all-nighter. But no, thank you for the information and sharing what you did because I I know we're in the history.

SPEAKER_05 1:43:56

Yeah. Love the history. Yeah, thanks, Turner. Thanks so much. All right, guys, we're gonna we'll we'll end the audio and then Turner, you can you can bow out, and I'll send a link to anybody who wants to come in for a couple minutes afterwards. A bunch of guys. If you want to stick around a little bit longer, some people will come in and ask you questions. But if you need to get out, I understand. Okay, all right, everybody. That's Turner Wathan. And like CT said, finds the rolling fork spirits. That is the it's it's phenomenal. Right. And the bourbon deluxe, I'm so glad I got to taste it with Turner tonight. And remember, www.scotchyburbonboys.com for all things Scotchy Bourbon Boys, Glenn Karen's t-shirts like I'm wearing right here. CT has been working on some different types of t-shirts. So hopefully, maybe by bourbon on the banks, we'll have some kind of we'll do something special for that. I've been picking up a lot of uh t-shirt stock for him. And once I see him next, he's gonna be in in it overstocked in t-shirts.

SPEAKER_04 1:45:04

Words are hard.

SPEAKER_05 1:45:05

Oh, thanks. Oh, okay, Carl. All right, all right, and then also remember on Facebook, Instagram, YouTube, and X, also on iHeart, Spotify, and Apple. But no matter whether you listen to us or like us, make sure you like, listen, subscribe, leave good feedback, become members, and do what Kirk does all the time and leave super chats. And I will definitely get you some Kirk for you to try. So I'll send something out by you in Montana. And then also remember good bourbon equals good times and good friends. Drink responsibly, don't drink and drive and supernatch. And AI will take us out.