How Two Merchant Mariners Built KO A Virginia Distillery

We sit down with the founders of KO Distilling to trace how a Ravens game conversation turned into a Virginia craft distillery with serious bourbon and cask strength rye. We get candid about equipment upgrades, control-state distribution, barrel strategy, and why barrel picks with a cigar club can become a real community engine. 
• the origin story from Merchant Marine Academy to a third career in distilling 
• learning licensing, regulation, and taxes while building a distillery from scratch 
• hiring a head distiller with chemical engineering and distilling science training 
• how military and engineering habits show up in process, safety, and consistency 
• the shift from pot still whiskey to a continuous column still and what it changed 
• building a tasting room experience inside an industrial warehouse space 
• naming the brand, winning trademarks, and why Bare Knuckle fits KO 
• developing rye from early young releases to older cask strength expressions 
• blending for consistency, setting aside unicorn barrels for single barrels 
• barrel sourcing with Kelvin Cooperage and navigating shortages 
• cracking Virginia ABC distribution and pitching for shelf space 
• online sales via retailers and why hazmat bourbon sells fast 
• cigar club barrel picks, pairing notes, and the hands-on bottling and labeling day 
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A craft distillery doesn’t get built on vibes, it gets built on hard lessons, tight process, and a lot of unglamorous decisions. We’re joined by the team behind KO Distilling in Manassas, Virginia, the makers of the Bare Knuckle line, to unpack how two longtime friends and Merchant Marine Academy grads turned a “what if we started a distillery?” moment into real whiskey on real shelves.

We talk about the early reality most people never see: licensing, control-state rules, taxes, and the constant need to learn fast without cutting corners. They explain why their engineering and military backgrounds actually matter in a distilling operation, from pumps and valves to boilers, safety, and repeatability. Then we get nerdy about the production side, including the jump from pot still distilling to a Vendome continuous column still, and how they kept their bourbon and rye profile consistent while scaling.

From there, we dig into what whiskey fans are chasing right now: cask strength rye, single barrels, and the “unicorn barrel” you just can’t blend away. We also cover barrel sourcing with Kelvin Cooperage, the economics of distribution through Virginia ABC, online ordering across multiple states, and a limited hazmat bourbon release that disappeared fast. Finally, we bring in a cigar club that does KO barrel picks to share what bottling day is like when fans help label, proof, and take the bottles home.

If you enjoy craft bourbon, Virginia rye whiskey, and behind-the-scenes distillery stories, subscribe, share this with a whiskey friend, and leave us a review. What bottle would you want to pick from a barrel?

If You Have Gohsts

Transcript

SPEAKER_01 0:46

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Sponsor Spotlight On Whiskey Teeth

SPEAKER_02 3:09

Hey, thanks for having us. Yeah. And, you know, we'll just I just want to get right into it. You know, when Laura sent me the bottles, and you know, I get a lot of whiskeys and bourbons to taste. And when she sent me the bottles, you know, a lot of times I'm not sure about a lot of the history of what the distillery is. So I know that AI has made it so much easier so I can kind of get get it a lot quicker because it does a really good job of picking stuff up, but you also have to double fact check it because sometimes it likes to lie to you. But overall, I when I when I looked you guys up, I you know, it I'm like, this this sounds like pretty it could be pretty cool. And then I

From College Friends To Founders

SPEAKER_02 3:55

got the the bourbon and your rye, and I opened them up, and it was fantastic. So I mean I contacted her pretty much right away after being able to try it and said wanted to get together to get you guys on, and here we are. So very good. So we so I know that you're you're both right now at the dis at the distillery, correct?

SPEAKER_08 4:22

Yes. Yes, we are. Yeah, I'm in my uh I'm in mine and Bill's shared office, and Bill's in the in the accounting office across the whole set.

SPEAKER_02 4:31

There you go. And then I know that you've got a cigar tasting kind of barrel pick experience going on out in the tasting room, and that maybe later that will bring some people in on that. But you know, you're at this point, and you guys, it's not like you're just brand new. You've been doing this for a while. And how did you guys get together initially? I you know, I know some of your background, but why don't you guys talk about how you guys decided to do this, but what you did before and when you met each other and all that?

SPEAKER_00 5:09

Sure. Well, John and I went to college together. We attended the United States Merchant Marine Academy up in Kings Point, New York, many years ago. We were there for four years together, and John played football. I played soccer and lacrosse there, and we had a really close friend. One of one of the soccer players on the team was John's best friend, Jimmy Finerty. And we just got to know each other and hang out with each other. And when John and I graduated in 1982, we both went into the merchant marine on tugboats, and then we came ashore in the mid 80s and worked for government contractors, respectively, and then ultimately we we both retired and we were looking to do something else. And John, maybe you can tell the story about how all this started with the third career.

SPEAKER_08 6:10

Right. So Bill contacted me and said, John, you want to go to a Ravens game? And I said, Oh yeah, sure. So so I met him up at his house and uh he started uh supplying me with alcohol and everything like that. And then we then we ended up at at the game and he kept buying me drinks and everything. And like halfway through the third quarter, he goes, I'm thinking about starting a distillery. And I'm like, a distillery? Oh my gosh, can you even do that? Is it legal, you know? So like you know, I brewed beer and I had you know was brewing beer at home and actually did a little brewing at the academy too. But uh I still have my diploma and everything, so they didn't catch me at the time. But um, so Bill said, Yeah, of course it's legal to start a distillery, and so I said, Okay, well consider that. And he said, Well, I think there's a convention coming up in Colorado in in a week, and I said, Well, let's come and see what it's all about. So I flew to Colorado and uh attended I think it was the AD ADI conference.

SPEAKER_07 7:22

Yep.

SPEAKER_08 7:23

And uh and then um went to a number of the the um talks and everything, saw a bunch of beautiful stills there and fell in love with copper and and at the end of at the end of the show we shook hands and said, let's do this. So yeah, we started right then as soon as we got back having meetings, and uh we always started our meetings with a little drink, you know, to to set the tone. So and you know, it took a took uh probably a year before we were able to even find a space where we could put start a distillery. So that's uh in a nutshell, it's about how it came about. And uh it took like another year and a half to get everything all you know purchased, set up, running, tested out, and that was with our 550-gallon Vendone pot stealth is what we started with, and four 500 gallon for members. So um we've upgraded since then.

SPEAKER_02 8:33

But so that's uh that's uh how we got to meet each other and so did you I mean, did you actually with everything it so did you when you were like looking into starting it and how distribution works and how this the the taxation and how specific people the government is on this how when you distill, were you guys aware of that pretty much, or did you learn that as you went along?

SPEAKER_00 9:10

I I'd have to say it was more learning as you went along. When John and I went to Denver for that conference, the one thing we realized is everyone else in the room was in the same boat as us. They were starting up a distillery, they might have had some experience in the industry, but they had never tackled something like this before. And we just said, you know, we gotta we gotta do this and do it right, get the right kind of equipment. And one of the things John did was search for a distiller that had some experience. And John, maybe you can tell him about how we found Ryan.

SPEAKER_08 9:51

Yeah, so Ryan Ryan's our head distiller, and I was searching on the ADI uh forum there, and they you know, a bunch of distillers were putting their resumes out, and I saw this young kid had just put his resume out there, just a he had just graduated from Michigan State University. So and he had with a both a bachelor's and master's in chemical engineering and concentration on distilling sciences. And he had actually worked at I think it was was it at Beam? Yeah. Yeah, he did an internship at Beam. And so we

Learning Licenses And Finding A Distiller

SPEAKER_08 10:36

flew him down here and took him out to dinner, gave him as many drinks as he wanted. Next day had a contract in front of him and he signed it. So moved him down here. He lived at a hotel for a while, then uh and he moved his girlfriend down and uh they got married, now they have two kids. So he's uh he's ours for a bit. So got him stuck. Uh yeah, yeah. So Ryan's been with us from the very beginning. He he was here, I guess, right when the when the still was delivered. So our first pot still.

SPEAKER_02 11:16

Yeah, that's a little bit different of a jump to go from beam as a you know, and then into a pot still. It's it's the energy. I'm sure he learned about the pot still more in college than he did at beam. But you it you know, there's a lot of stuff that you pick up in those different places and whatnot. And and distilling is something, and obviously he hasn't blown you guys up, so he's doing all right.

SPEAKER_08 12:44

Oh, he's he's brilliant, really. In fact, we call him Beaker.

SPEAKER_02 12:49

There you go.

SPEAKER_08 12:50

I have a picture of Beaker, I have a picture of Beaker sitting on his uh hanging on his door. Okay. So um very good.

SPEAKER_02 13:01

So as far as your personalities, do they work together really good? Because is is one of you stronger in one area and another stronger in the other, and you kind of you know blend together like like a good combination, or are you guys strong in the same area and butt heads all the time?

SPEAKER_00 13:21

I'd I'd say it's a little of both, but certainly our personalities are different. John has got the the gift of ghetto. He's he can talk to anybody about anything. He's also a very understated engineer. He's got a lot of experience and knowledge of of the engineering. And I think I'm actually more of a well, I shouldn't say more of a people person, but I'm I'm more interested in in good getting good people and and and developing them and and taking care of them.

SPEAKER_02 13:59

So okay, so that that man the management aspect of it, yeah. That's that's always what I f what whenever I see something that is successful, especially with partners, and you guys have it's not like you haven't been doing this for a while now. I mean, and then you knew each other pretty well, I mean, throughout your careers, and you both served in in you both have military backgrounds, right?

SPEAKER_00 14:27

Yeah, yeah, we were besides being at the academy for four years, not academy by the way, is a one of the five federal military academies. Much smaller version of the Naval Academy in West Point in many ways, but it is in fact military. And John and I, once we got out, we were both in the naval, naval reserve as officers for many years.

SPEAKER_02 14:53

Yeah, and I mean I just have did a lot of what you you know in the military and what you were doing there throughout, the do you find that a lot of those skills that you picked up there you can use into this as far as you know, different type things like discipline in that type of thing? Does it help you in distilling?

SPEAKER_00 15:12

Yeah, John, why don't you tell them what what every every ship on the high seas has in the way of evaporation/slash distilling equipment?

SPEAKER_08 15:22

Oh yeah, yeah. So we have huge evaporators on there just uh, you know, for drinking water and huge boilers and so and pumps all over the place and valves and you know, so I when we started specing out all our equipment and everything, it was that's all the engineering classes that we took, uh, because we both graduated with engineering degrees. But Bill was an overachiever, so he decided to take both degrees during the four years at the all at the academy. But uh but our engineering backgrounds uh really helped out a lot, you know, because we we knew about pumps, valves, boilers, the whole evaporation process and and distillation process. So yeah, that that all you know meshed together very nicely.

SPEAKER_02 16:17

Yeah, and I think you you can highlight that of exactly what you just said, because people don't realize, you know, a lot of times,

Engineering Skills That Translate To Spirits

SPEAKER_02 16:25

sometimes, you know, when you hear this story about how um people were drinking whiskey instead of water because the water supply was tainted back, you know, back in the older days. I'm like, well, why didn't they just run the water through the steel? And that would have taken care of it, you know. So, anyways, but with that said, the yeah, I can see how that though the those degrees and and that, you know, working with that equipment would just make it so much easier just going into this so you weren't unfamiliar with anything. When I I what's also unique is that I work at a recycling plant and you know it's you you basically have a a baler and it runs on hydraulic oil, you know, hydraulics and motors. So a lot of the stuff in the, you know, when people grind, you know, the grinders and the motors on the grinders and everything, and all the problems that happen with dust and everything, you know, that that makes it unique to me understanding as a plant manager of that when I went in and started learning about the distilling process, where there was so much that I always saw that was similar to, you know, there's a lot of stuff that you're talking about valves and understanding the hydraulic aspect of it. Now you said you upgraded from the one pot still to the next, you know, a bigger one, obviously, correct? A bigger still. Do you is is that one, are those more complicated? Did you put in like the the modern version with all the software and everything? Is is that or are you still pretty much doing it the old-fashioned way?

SPEAKER_08 18:14

No, we we put in a this was back in let's say 2016. Bill kept going, we need to buy a column, we need to buy a column. I was like, you know, I I I was like, I finally learned how to run this pot still very well. And and I was like, and it wasn't it was just a little bit resistant because I hadn't even studied up on uh how a column worked, and then Bill went in for some procedure and he was in the hospital for a day or two, and he he called me up and he says, John, please just take the book home tonight and just read it. And I came back the next day and called him and I was like, Why didn't we buy a column still before? Why did you talk me into just getting a pot still? So yeah, we bought a uh 12-inch

Upgrading From Pot Still To Column

SPEAKER_08 19:09

vendom continuous column. And uh of course at that point in time we said, okay, well, we need to upgrade the boiler, get a bigger boiler. We needed to upgrade the chiller, needed more chilled water, so we needed a big bigger chilled water tank. We got the big air compressor at that point in time too, because we were moving so much more mash with air diaphragm pumps and such, and really just upgraded the entire distilling plant. Because our woven tall enough to hold the hold the column, and we built a dog house up on top of the up on top of the roof. I saw a picture. And had that lowered in with a crane and then hooked it all up.

SPEAKER_02 20:00

Pardon? I saw a picture of the column steel, you know, had with the dog over the, you know, whatever. And then I, you know, those I find it that's kind of exciting though, right? Even with us when we when we switched out our baler, it had to come, it has to be dropped in, you know, it's loaded on and brought and a crane is necessary to bring it off. But dropping a, I always find if you're around distillery when they're dropping in their column still, it's kind of the coolest thing that day. It's like there's an excitement about it. It's kind of like something that you've been planning and setting up, and that's like you're getting into the final stages of it, of it being put where it comes, and you're you're you know mounting it into place and and getting it all hooked up. It's kind of a special time, right? It doesn't happen all the time either.

SPEAKER_08 20:56

I mean, it's not it's a once-in-a-lifetime thing. But of course, after we bought it and we're running it for a while, I was like, oh, should have got the 18-inch model.

SPEAKER_02 21:10

Well, I I as you said, I mean, but but you know, when you're doing it and you guys are doing it, obviously doing something right because you're here still, and you're put and how you go about building and and not getting where if you would have bought the you know, you if you buy a bigger one and you're making all this whiskey, you have to have the buildup in the market and kind of, you know, and we've you know, the the whole thing with the market, how everything's been in a lot of places, you know, slowing down a little bit. But I will say that I found that craft distillers like yourself, it still seems like the world is whiskey world is your sweet spot still. You know, it's kind of like I find that a lot of people who are a lot larger had made a lot, lot, a lot more juice, and they have enough juice right now to keep it on the shelf, but it's not moving as fast as they thought it would be. But you guys aren't supplying, you know, the whole country and having to keep stuff on your shelf on the shelf, whereas, you know, those those guys seem to be having a little bit more of an issue, but a lot of it's sold right out of your distillery, correct? Mm-hmm.

SPEAKER_08 22:23

Yes. Because we our our front area there is actually operated as a Virginia ABC distillery tasting room. We man it and we provide uh you know provide the space and everything, but all the bottles that we sell it out of there as an agent for uh Virginia ABC. But it's very nice. We get a mark up there on on the bottles too. They if they're sold out in distillery stores, so that helps us out also.

SPEAKER_02 22:58

Okay.

SPEAKER_08 22:59

Plus it's nice to have people come in and and walk around too. And be able to leave with something. Yes, yes.

SPEAKER_00 23:06

That's the key. And and and also to experience something, you know, being able to see how we make it and talk to the people that make it, it's it's a it's a big deal for a lot of people that visit us. It's it's a learning experience all the way around.

SPEAKER_02 23:23

Okay. Yeah. So I mean, have you guys overall just consistently kind of seen growth as far as how long have you had your tasting room and bottles,

Tasting Room Reality In A Warehouse

SPEAKER_02 23:35

you know, the bottle shop there? How long has that been have you had that for?

SPEAKER_00 23:44

When we opened up in two thousand The tasting room's been there. Okay. And we when we moved to when we got this location in the city of Manassas, the city told us that we would have to go into a heavy industrial area. Because unlike a brewery and a winery, you know, we were making flammable liquids, and they they said, you're going to have to go into a heavy industrial area. And there really weren't that many opportunities for us to get into. We kind of fell into this place. The timing was great, but we're actually in a warehouse as you drive up. Even though we're only two miles from downtown Manassas, as you drive up, doesn't have the same curb appeal as a lot of other distilleries that are really destination type distilleries. We're in a warehouse with 16,000 square feet in our real front area with our tasting room and our and our grade room, we call, which is also our bottling room, is probably maybe 1,500 square feet total. But it's a nice space. Even though you're you think it's a warehouse, you walk in and you see a bar, you see a fireplace, leather soap, you know, tables, chairs. It's a nice place.

SPEAKER_02 25:08

Yeah. And that and like like I always say, distill it and have an experience, and they will come. Yeah. Yeah. I mean, I I saw pictures also of your of the of the furniture and everything, and it it looked in in all the barrels and kind of how you have it set up. It's it's a pretty cool space.

SPEAKER_08 25:31

And it turned out very nicely.

SPEAKER_02 25:33

It made me want to go.

SPEAKER_00 25:36

Well, come on home. Come on down. We'll take you to a Ravens game.

SPEAKER_02 25:42

My my my daughter-in-law is from Maryland, so she's a huge Ravens fan. So yeah, uh that that would be something that would be fun. I'm a Packer fan, so we gotta get a Packer Ravens game, and then I'll be there.

SPEAKER_00 25:57

All right, we'll work on that.

SPEAKER_02 25:58

All right. So, anyways. All right, so let's get into the brand. I mean, you have the bare knuckle brand, that's that's been it's your whiskey brand. I mean, it's been a lot of different whiskeys, correct? And in, you know, from the start.

SPEAKER_00 26:18

Yeah, well, when we started, first thing is we were trying to get a name for the company, and our legal name is Carlson and O'Mara Distilleries, LLC. And we tried to get a trademark on that, and the government wouldn't give it to us, and we said, that's gotta be unique. Why can't we get it? And they said, there's a Carlson vodka in Sweden that's also spelled with a K and two S's, and your last name's too close. So we were scrambling trying to figure out what our name was gonna be, and we ultimately

Why The Brand Is Bare Knuckle

SPEAKER_00 26:56

had the opportunity to get a trademark for KO, which is our respective initials, and we actually got that trademark. So as a ploy on KO for knockout, we went with bare knuckle as the brand for our whiskey, and we were able to get the trademark on that as well. And it took, geez, back then it probably took over a year to get each of those trademarks, but we we got them.

SPEAKER_02 27:26

Interesting. I mean, honestly, you guys like truly it's when you first started out. Did you feel like every time you went and did something, there was something that you had to do to get around this to get to that? Was it it was non-stop.

SPEAKER_08 27:48

You were learning every day as you went along. So and and we continue to learn every day, also. It's it it hasn't stopped. It's uh it's a continual building process here.

SPEAKER_02 28:02

So that's awesome. So the newest bare knuckle is your rye, and it's this one's the cast strength. So what you know, we were talking a little bit, John, uh, before about you know what it was like. Now, is this have you done rise before this, or is this like the premiere for it, or has there been a couple before that?

SPEAKER_08 28:30

No, so we did we we when we were first distilling for the first several years, we were you know doing our batch distillations with the pot still, and we were making rye whiskey and also, but we didn't sell, let's see, when did we first put that on the market? I think we first put our rye our rye whiskey on the market at like 18 months old. We did, yeah. We

Cask Strength Rye And Consistent Blending

SPEAKER_08 29:00

had to sell something. So, but it was good, it wasn't great, it was good, and uh we made enough of that and then became you know straight rye whiskey after it hit two years, and and then we kind of settled on uh about a four-year age statement on those. Some of these uh some of these are older. I think that this cast strength that uh I'm holding here is uh over six years old. Um and yours should be on the back there too.

SPEAKER_02 29:39

Um with the ring, you see the ring card girl sixty-two months, so five years and two months, right?

SPEAKER_07 29:52

Yeah, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 29:55

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 29:55

And this one's over this one I have here is over six, so and yeah, so then then we that would that was a very interesting time also because we once we ran out of barrels that had been pot distilled, we were we were distilling both in the pot and also on the column too, and making sure that because we had a following already and and people were like, okay, I like your bourbon, I like your rye, I like your wheat whiskey. And I said, Okay, well now we have to make all these taste the same, coming off the column still. So that was that was trial time, also. It's always interesting because you're did you give up on it? It took some time. Yeah, yeah. We got we got we uh we we were able to nail it there, which was good. So you know what I mean. I always tell people this is a very scary industry because you're you're making something and then you're putting it in a barrel and you're hoping in five years that it tastes beautiful. So but if you put you put great stuff into the barrel, it's gonna be even, you know, it's gonna be great when it comes out. But that's so plus you have to make sure that you're making it consistently and with good grains and and following all the proper steps.

SPEAKER_02 31:24

So plus, um now I have two, but I'll make a statement. Plus, you guys were coming into the to into your own, you know, you in the two when I first got into this, like 2018-2019, there were so many people that exactly what you were saying, they wanted this, they want they were purists. They didn't want their finished whiskey, it was almost non-existent. And if someone was finishing something, they were like ripping on it and jumping on it and saying that's not bourbon, or that's not this, or that's not this. But since then, the whole industry has just completely like blossomed into the fact that now all these people are looking for the next type of finished whiskey and they don't mind batch changes. Now you can keep it consistent for your fans also, but I find a lot of the people are always looking for the little changes here or there. And so, you know, it's like a good, it's a good thing for you guys when they do that, where they're not trying to hold you consistent to like, well, that doesn't taste like the last batch, I'm out. Right, right, right.

SPEAKER_08 32:36

And you know, we and when we are doing our blending, you know, we're doing seven, seven to eight barrel blends. But while we're while we're doing that, while we're tasting each different barrel, if there's a nice uh there's one that's tasting great that's a unicorn barrel, we set that one aside and and then we make that a single single barrel expression. So but we you know we do offer single single barrel uh expressions on all our different products.

SPEAKER_02 33:10

So do you guys, when you're blending, do you mix pot still barrels with column still barrels for a blend at all? Or is it usually just the column still and the pot still separate? I think we're all out of pot still. And you don't run and you're not losing and you don't run your pot stills anymore? Uh I run it to make gin. But not not the whiskey. Okay. Right, right.

SPEAKER_08 33:39

Well we we we do, but it's for a for a special one that that hasn't been released yet. So we did we did some bourbon with some heirloom corns and grains, so that's still aging right now, but it's tasting great, so we just I think we have a name for it, but I'm not gonna say it. So you always get in trouble when I leak things.

SPEAKER_00 34:07

Yeah, it's it's that bloody butcher corn, and we mixed it with with rye instead of what we normally do, which is wheat, and it really does taste fantastic, and it's right uh right around six years old now. And I think maybe next year we're gonna be releasing that.

SPEAKER_08 34:26

Right. And we did we did sour mash procedures on the and that too, where all our other distilled whiskies are all sweet mesh.

SPEAKER_02 34:38

Okay. Okay. So uh that's awesome. I mean, that's great to be able to do do that, and I mean the diff like like what would you say? That's the when you're doing it, when you're just pot distilling in a batch batches like you do, you I find that it's more similar to like you're gonna it's gonna pull out pot stills pull out so much more grain flavors, they're always a little bit more grain forward than the column still. And that's one thing. If you're gonna use a an heirloom corn, that's exactly where, in my opinion, it for whatever it is, is where you should be putting it into that that pot still to basically get the most flavor that you possibly can off of it.

SPEAKER_08 35:32

Yeah, it is tasting very good. So looking forward to that one coming out.

SPEAKER_02 35:37

Well, you'll have to have Laura send me a sample of that when you get it. Okay. So I can promote that one. But I don't think you're gonna have any problem selling it because usually the it you won't disagree. The smaller batch releases that you release something like that, that's something that all the people that love your distillery are gonna be there for. Right. Yes. And that's the one thing I love about the craft distilleries like yourself is that these right now, you know, you've got a lot of allocated bottles everybody's searching for, but it seems like everybody's out in, you know, and more so than ever into non-Kentucky distilleries like yourself, like Virginia and Ohio, people are starting at home to accept the bourbons and the whiskeys and the ryes that are being made out of Pennsylvania, Virginia, Ohio, you know, all these states, because you guys are getting that age on them. You know, it's not just, you know, it's it's not when you're releasing an 18-month rye, yes, it's kind of like what they did on the frontier, but it's not like not like when you get it, you get a five-year, you get the five-year, two, two-month rye, and you're picking up that barrel flavor into it and mixing. And I always find the five, six-year mark is where you're still picking up some grain of the whiskey, but that barrel is starting to influence it with its pulling in those caramels and those sugars. Whereas then when you get into seven, eight, nine, ten, you're now getting into less of the grain of the whiskey and more of what the flavor of the barrel is. And you know, those are always what you guys do so well because you always have those barrels that are really going great to go older. And then the other stuff, you you know, when it's ready, you guys kind of know when it's ready.

SPEAKER_08 37:32

Right, right. And we've concentrated on or kind of set what we're doing with barrels and and using Kelvin Cooperage barrel stadium. They've uh they've taken very good care of us over the years because when we first started, also there was a barrel shortage. Not no more. Oh my gosh, we're gonna we're gonna make some liquor, we're not gonna have anybody any place to put it. So uh I mean so I we I was in here doing demo of of the building that's you know, we had just signed the lease on it. I'm in here with with a sawzall cutting through electrical wires. Of course, I turned off the breaker. Bill Bill was like, John, come on, I gotta get you out of here before you kill yourself. So I said, Where are we going? He goes, We're going to we're going to Kentucky.

Barrels, Kelvin Cooperage, And Shortages

SPEAKER_08 38:27

I said, Okay, what are we going there for? He goes, You gotta find some barrels. So we hopped on a plane, flew to Kentucky, banged on the door at Kelvin Cooperage, and they didn't know us from Adam. And he said, uh we said, we'd like to speak about speak to somebody about getting some barrels. And they said, Hold on a second. Then they let us in the door a couple minutes later. We walked in and sat down and had a drink and with them, and at the end of a few drinks, shook hands, and they said, You just call us, tell us how many barrels you need, and you know, no contract or anything like that, and we'll take care of you. You're like perfect, and they took care of us. So what was the drink? Uh which drink are you talking about?

SPEAKER_02 39:21

When you had a drink with them, what were what was it? What what what did they well they're uh it was two brothers, right?

SPEAKER_08 39:34

Uh Bill?

SPEAKER_00 39:35

Yeah, Kevin and Paul McLaughlin. And we we probably spent two to three hours in Kevin's office. He had a series of bottles everywhere. All all different distilleries. And he was a very gracious host. And like John said, we walked out and we were a customer, which is great.

SPEAKER_02 40:00

When you guys got when you guys get got into this, were you bourbon fans already? I mean, were you yeah? So you all right, that's that's that's good. Because we didn't cover that part of it. You guys were like, yeah, we do this and we do that, but but but being bourbon fans. So out of everything now that you've done, and I it there's always something financially that's rough at the start, and how people get through it, they all get through it different ways. But you know, what was the biggest challenge to get to this point for you guys? I mean, it you you know, the story is is very similar to a lot of people when they do it, and and for whatever reason, I think it's the people like yourself. Things fall into place when they need to fall into place. And there's, you know, nobody just does this and it just isn't, it just happens and there's no challenge. I mean, there's always there's always challenges that pop up, but what was the the biggest challenge of starting a distillery to get to some really good aged whiskey like you have now?

SPEAKER_08 41:16

Well, I think the biggest challenge was getting it on the shelves. That's yeah, getting getting distribution is uh uh and especially in a control state, so we had to go down and and pitch our products to Virginia ABC. And uh it's not they're not looking for the answer of oh well my my bourbon's gonna replace this bourbon on your shelf. They don't want to hear that. So because somebody is already buying that type bourbon already. So you have to tell them how the how your products complement their portfolio on the shelves, along with price point and and flavor and uh and how you're gonna support it also in in tastings and and marketing and such. So we we did a very good job of presenting how we were going

Distribution In Virginia ABC And Beyond

SPEAKER_08 42:12

to bring this to the market. And and I think they gave us did they give us a hundred stores right off, Phil? Something like that.

SPEAKER_00 42:24

Yeah, with with the first listing that we got, it was for a hundred stores.

SPEAKER_08 42:29

Yeah, so that's great. So we load up our truck and took at least probably a couple hundred cases uh of bourbon down to Virginia ABC for distribution out to the ABC stores. So that was great. But that was uh that was a big hurdle, and and that was something that we had to work through to make sure it was presented properly so it would uh you know fill in a hole in their portfolio.

SPEAKER_02 42:58

So let me get this straight. You had to first get your distillery built and get permission. Now, do you need you need permission to actually distill from the state, correct?

SPEAKER_08 43:14

Oh yeah, we gotta get it out of Virginia distilling license.

SPEAKER_02 43:19

Right. And so then you have to make it, you have to get it to a point where it's aged enough where you bottle it, and then you gotta go convince them to put it on the shelves at that point? And what would happen? I mean, how many people do this and they say no?

SPEAKER_00 43:43

It's actually what you just said is in fact quite a challenge. In the Commonwealth of Pennsylvania, they do things a little differently. What they'll do is if you if you're a distillery in Pennsylvania and you go to them, they're gonna put your product on the shelves. And there isn't as much of a a competition for that shelf space for craft distilleries. But in Virginia, there is a competition, and it is in fact harder to get your product listed in Virginia.

SPEAKER_02 44:19

Now, can you get can you be a distillery but not distribute within Virginia, but maybe in Ohio you could do it? Was that a is that a possibility, or would Virginia let you do it that way? Where if you could get your product on the shelf in Ohio, but you wouldn't distribute in Virginia, is that an option? I mean, I'm just I'm asking, not that you would do that, but is that something that you would have to do if they wouldn't let you put it there in Virginia?

SPEAKER_00 44:52

Well, they're I guess that's a product. I think it at our height, we were in nine states besides Virginia, across the Potomac, we were in the District of Columbia, Maryland, and Delaware, and that is all private. It is not comp uh Bozar control states. Right. So we we we are still in in those three areas, but we were in nine states across the country, and then after COVID, and as you well know, the bourbon bubble kind of burst two, two and a half years ago, and we we just sort of contracted and we're we're back down to just the four states. Okay, if you count the district as a state.

SPEAKER_02 45:35

Do you sell online?

SPEAKER_00 45:41

Yes and no. And and to do that nationally, what we do is we We sell to our distributor in Maryland. They have a series of online retailers in the District of Columbia, and people can go online, order the product, and have it shipped. I think that's the best one. Retailers can go to about 38 states.

SPEAKER_02 46:05

Yeah, I mean that's honestly that with that online distribution right there, that's the best one through Washington. Everybody that's, you know, that's a lot of people are doing that. So that's good. Now, how is that how is that going for sales? Does that does that work well for you as far as through the through those states? Are there is that is that selling?

SPEAKER_00 46:27

It it actually has been pretty pretty good. The last few years it slowed down, but recently we actually had a hazmat bourbon that that we put out, 10 years old. We didn't mention it, but when we started distilling in 2015, as John said, we weren't sure if we were gonna make stuff that was good, if we were gonna make enough of it, how much it was gonna cost. So we actually in 2015 also bought some MGP high-ride bourbon from Lawrenceburg, Indiana. And we had a bunch of barrels shipped down here, and last year they all turned 10 years old, and the last nine of them were all hazmat 140

Online Shipping And The Hazmat Release

SPEAKER_00 47:17

proof in that area, and so we did a nine-barrel micro batch of those nine hazmat barrels, and and the hazmat stuff that is selling at that online retailer is going right off the shelf. It's gone already. Yeah, it's all gone.

SPEAKER_08 47:37

Yeah. Just keep, yeah, just keep it. Yeah, that was an interesting thing. So Bill and I walked into MGP, sat down with the gentleman behind the behind his desk, and said, We'd like to buy some bourbon. He said, Okay, how much would you like? We said 80 barrels. He was like, 80 barrels? You know, I'm sure he people are buying like thousands and thousands of barrels from him on a daily basis. And we 80? Is that all you need? Yes, just 80, because 80 is what maxes out a tractor trailer. Right. Uh and so we actually wanted to use Kelvin barrels, and they were using different, you know, another another Cooperage for their standard stuff. And he said, you can use Kelvin barrels, you have to ship them up to us. So we had a tractor trailer stop over at Kelvin Cooperage, pick up 80 barrels, drive them up to Lawrenceburg. They got filled and then brought down here.

SPEAKER_02 48:44

Okay. So that was filled with you. You bought 80 barrels of new make in the barrels that you wanted. Okay. Yes. Well, good thing you waited 10 years and it's hazmat, so you could recover recover the the extra shipping and handling that all went through that.

unknown 49:04

Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 49:05

And people don't realize that, but that's a thing. And especially if to do that today with with with the oil prices, it's that would even be more expensive. So yeah. All right. So do you guys want to put out how people can get a hold of you, you know, as far as you know, where, you know, uh on the internet and that type of thing, where they can check out your distillery?

SPEAKER_00 49:33

Sure. Like I said, our doing business as name is KO Distilling. We're we're in the city of Manassas, and for those that might not know exactly where that is, we're about 35 miles due west of Washington, D.C. And kind of in the Washington suburbs. We're not that hard to find. For those that know where Dulles Airport is in Northern Virginia, we're about, what do you say, John, about 25 miles south of Dulles? Yes.

SPEAKER_08 50:07

Not too far.

SPEAKER_00 50:08

Yeah. And our website is kodistilling.com. And Facebook is also kodistilling.com. Instagram is ko distillery because ko distilling was already taken. And you know, we we are in a couple other like LinkedIn and whatnot, but those are probably the the big areas for those that want to learn more about us. So I mostly I would say the website, Facebook page, and and Instagram.

SPEAKER_02 50:41

All right. Do you guys want to bring in the cigar group in real quick?

SPEAKER_00 50:46

I'm I'm gonna go check to see if they're available. They've mailed up by now. You're you're gonna like them.

SPEAKER_08 50:52

Okay.

SPEAKER_00 50:53

Hold on.

SPEAKER_08 50:54

Yeah. As you can see in in the background of Bill's office there, uh there's uh there's paste products right there shown through the window.

SPEAKER_02 51:09

I've been many, I've been in many distilleries. Talk a little bit about the distiller's reserve real quick. I mean, that this is fantastic.

SPEAKER_08 51:18

Yeah, yeah, it's it is good. I love our bourbon. I just really do. So this is a weeded bourbon. You know, seven seventy percent.

SPEAKER_07 51:33

Let's go on, you want to be alone?

SPEAKER_03 51:42

All right, right back later.

SPEAKER_00 51:53

Why don't you come on back?

SPEAKER_02 52:00

We got action. This is it.

SPEAKER_08 52:06

We should have put a web webcam on his head or something like that. Yeah.

SPEAKER_02 52:11

What yeah, we could have put a GoPro. Yeah, GoPro, yeah.

SPEAKER_00 52:18

Nice. Jeff, we have here, we have John and Lottie from the Good Times Gang Cigar Club. All right, nice to meet you guys. This is Jeff Tiny Mueller.

SPEAKER_02 52:33

Yeah, I go by Tiny, that's fine. Um he's six foot eight, right? Six six four. Okay, there you go. Big enough. So, how are you guys?

SPEAKER_03 52:51

Outstanding. Outstanding have just taken part of uh quite a few of the KL at list.

SPEAKER_04 52:58

Absolutely. I mean, we love it. We we did a barrel pick, what, last year? And phenomenal. And so we you know, read up, and now we have our second one, and we're already making plans for the third for the for our club.

SPEAKER_02 53:14

So what's really enjoyed. What's a barrel pick like in the state of Virginia as far as how it all works? Did they have it all set up so that you can get a single barrel through your group and everything can go status quo, or is it uh

Cigar Club Barrel Picks And Bottling Day

SPEAKER_02 53:30

tough to do?

SPEAKER_04 53:32

No, it was super easy. The first year, I think you reached out.

SPEAKER_03 53:36

Yeah, the first year actually your Peter.

SPEAKER_07 53:41

Yeah, Peter.

SPEAKER_03 53:42

Yeah, your product person reached out to us because we were a cigar group that actually did a lot of bourbon pair of bourbon cigar pairings. And he was interested in working with us to do a barrel pick, but through the COVID thing, it it kept falling off. So it was on, it was off, it was on, it was off. But then when we finally met up, it was very easy. So the this KO distillery was one that I found was very easy to work with.

SPEAKER_08 54:21

Absolutely, absolutely.

SPEAKER_03 54:23

I would say uh a lot of folks who have asked us, you know, what was it like working with KO? Was it difficult? Was you guys were hands down, super easy to work with.

SPEAKER_04 54:38

Very easy.

SPEAKER_03 54:39

And knowing other folks who have done barrel picks, it was hands down, probably the least it was it was easier than going to a store and actually picking a file of bourbon off the shelf. So it was they walked us through the process. We had our bourbon enthusiasts who came online from our club who were, of course, very well versed, well-versed in bourbon. So we didn't have folks who were like, oh, I kind of like bourbon, except for my husband, who is a rum drinker.

SPEAKER_04 55:21

Unfortunately, unfortunately, yeah.

SPEAKER_02 55:22

You haven't you haven't converted him yet?

SPEAKER_03 55:26

Yeah, we don't we we he he still kicking and screaming, but he, you know.

SPEAKER_04 55:33

He did like the KO though.

SPEAKER_03 55:35

Happy life, happy life. So he is he is on that bandwagon, but it was such a smooth process that everybody was like, oh, you guys, I mean, it was it was so fluid. You know, we did our our first tasting, we did our second tasting, and then we, you know, just to narrow down what we all like, what our palettes were, you know, it was like, hey, we like this, and these are the this is these are the notes we're looking for. And your team was like, hey, okay, this is what we want to put out for you the second time around. And by then, we were all like on the same sheet of music. So it was it was super, super easy. And then when we did our second, our first barrel pick was like extremely everybody was excited about it. But by the time we did the second barrel pick, everybody was like, hey, game one.

SPEAKER_04 56:37

We knew exactly what we wanted, and it was I don't know, the other chapters were envious of us. Actually, very envious.

SPEAKER_00 56:50

How many states are you all in?

SPEAKER_03 56:52

It's like 30 some states, it's like 32 states, and well, yeah, it's about 1600 people in the you know, in the thing overall internationally, but everybody's like, how did you all get those, you know, get that distillery to partner with you? And I was like, Well, you just gotta go and talk to people. Right.

SPEAKER_02 57:15

Do a little bit of networking. So you know, so have you convinced John and uh Bill to do a cigar blend yet?

SPEAKER_03 57:25

So now that's the thing. So we have as a as a cigar aficionado, I will tell you this, and it's really it's not a secret. None of us like any of the cigar blends blends.

SPEAKER_04 57:42

No, we I think we a lot of us think that the the distillers who make the cigar blends are cigar smokers, and they they make something they think works with cigars, but it for the vast majority of most cigar smokers, I don't think it hits just right when you're smoking. You know, it might be a good bourbon or it might be a good whiskey, but we're looking to pair it, right? We want it to taste good while we're smoking. And so I think we've you know, main we've able to do that with KO. And actually was talking to Ryan, the master of Stiller, about doing a little bit of age on the next pick for that exact reason.

SPEAKER_02 58:23

Well, I mean, I don't know. Do you guys, as a cigar, do you pair with cognacs and that type of thing? Do you use or is it just pretty much bourbons and whiskies?

SPEAKER_04 58:36

I think most of us are you know whiskey enthusiasts. There's some people who do have a little cognac or port wines and stuff, and it works, but I think that's the the minority of the group.

SPEAKER_02 58:48

Okay. I mean, uh honestly, you know that those are the original, what would you say, spirits that paired with cigars, you know, before before bourbon or whatever, but I agree by putting some of that now, and mostly you're I think you're right as far as some people aren't cigar, but I mean there's a there's a few really good cigar blends out there that I've found that were put out, you know, by specifically blenders who did smoke cigars, you know, and put that into trying to capture what they capture in a cognac or an armignac, you know what I mean, that kind of thing for that that was always paired. But that's good to know that you guys like age, you're looking at a little bit more age, and you guys are dedicated to the actual bourbon. Yes.

SPEAKER_03 59:43

I don't for myself, I personally I think when they go for a cigar blend or something of that nature, they have actually had a particular cigar in mind or a flavor of a cigar or that palette in mind. So when you go for a different cigar, it kind of messes with the flavor. So then it doesn't pair right. So, like for some of us, if you go to just drink that bourbon or that whiskey or whatever that spirit is, it's kind of off. Yeah. So you're not like the uh the one we tasted from Virginia.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:28

Virginia Distillery Distillery Company. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:00:31

We were like, it was, it kind of fell short. We were like, okay, I don't know what cigar they were looking for that went with this, but the cigar that I had, or when I drank it, I was like, hmm, this this isn't it.

SPEAKER_04 1:00:47

Yeah, I think the KO spirits have so far been very versatile. No matter what kind of cigar you like to smoke, whether you you like light smokes or you want something like a heavy Maduro, they they've worked very well with what we're trying to pair it with.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:00

Yeah, and we have smokers that are novice smokers, like literally in our chapter, we have smokers who who fancy a sweet tip. We have smokers who are who have been smoking a very long time, who do a heavy Maduro, who who smoke from the time they wake up in the morning with a cup of coffee to the evening, and that can go all day, you know, from coffee to bourbon in the evening or to, like you say, for their dessert wine.

SPEAKER_04 1:01:30

Oh, she's calling me out now.

SPEAKER_03 1:01:32

Yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:01:34

So I want to ask, did we put you to work in bottling also?

SPEAKER_04 1:01:42

We uh we did enjoy bottling it with KO. Uh they showed us how to do it, and it was really fun. We got a small group together and we did it like just the core group of doing it, and I think that really adds some of the personal touch to it.

SPEAKER_02 1:01:56

Yeah, that was a really enjoyable experience. Oh my gosh. They have they you are you guys obviously, John and Bill, when you when you get when you get your constituents here to basically say that while they're working, you're doing a really good job.

SPEAKER_03 1:02:16

It was a phenomenal experience, and everyone else is like, oh my god, you guys got to be. I was like, you have got to know that when you have a hand in actually, you know, pulling the bunghole and actually being a part of that, it just you know, dumping it, filling actually an experience.

SPEAKER_02 1:02:40

Uh did you guys label?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:43

Oh, yes, we did. We did Bill show you our label. It it we did, we did everything.

SPEAKER_00 1:02:53

Did you see that?

SPEAKER_03 1:02:54

We did it all. We we fashioned our label and everything.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:00

A little design input on the label this year, yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:03

Yeah, we did everything. So it was it was all the way down to actually writing the proof, right? We did it all.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:12

We only messed it up once, though.

SPEAKER_03 1:03:14

So yeah, we were we were all in. We were all in. So it was it was an amazing experience. And yeah, it was it was actually great.

SPEAKER_04 1:03:27

I mean, we had what 25 people sitting outside here in a day they're not even traditionally open to come over here and buy more bottles, buy more bottles and smoke and hang out. So, I mean, it's a great product. As folks say, Oh, I didn't get a bottle a night tonight. Come on out, come on out, get some more. That's perfect. Yeah, move these bottles. Right. We're ready for we're ready for round three now.

SPEAKER_00 1:03:52

By the way, Jeff, one of the two bottles he has there is the Castrant Rye. Their second pick, Jeff, what was the rye. So that that's their most recent pick, and they're very happy with it.

SPEAKER_02 1:04:05

Okay, and and so my question so the way that it works is that once you do the pick and you get it, you get the people to come there and they buy it out of through whatever, right out of the distillery.

SPEAKER_03 1:04:21

Right out of the distillery. So normally on the day of the bottling, we have a whole big shebang. We really invite everybody out that day. We try to move as many bottles that day as we possibly can because that's what we want to do. Yeah, you don't want to go broke. We also just can continue to push on social media and every day that we can just to get everybody out to KO to tell them to come, hey, buy the bottles here. And if we have any other events, we try to invite Bill out, tell them, hey, do their pre-orders or whatever, just to come and get more bottles from KO.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:03

Okay. But yeah, that's so it's a true partnership with them. That's kind of what it is. Absolutely. You don't have you're not there, they have it there. It sells through the the the the as if it was in this, and then if you do an event, you do you basically have the pre-order so that that it's paid for, then it goes to the vent. Okay, so that makes sense. Okay, that's a that's a cool way to do it. Very cool, actually. It's way it's all KO.

SPEAKER_03 1:05:32

It's all KO.

SPEAKER_02 1:05:35

All right. So that that that helps that helps out a little bit. Yeah. And if any of any other questions for us? Do I have any other question? So what's what's your morning cigar with coffee?

SPEAKER_03 1:05:52

For me, my morning cigar is normally a nub with coffee.

SPEAKER_04 1:05:59

Or yeah, it's usually a nub for me. Yeah. Something coffee, yeah, not coffee flavored, but like has a coffee note to it, like the Perillo. The Perio Pledge is a really good thing.

SPEAKER_02 1:06:11

One of what the other one of the guys, one of the guys on the podcast sets that couldn't make it tonight, CT, he he basically starts the morning off, and he just goes out in his garage, opens up the garage door, and sits and has a cigar and his coffee. And that's what he does on a regular basis. And I was just like, yeah, he's like, that's just that works for me. So, you know, he doesn't, he doesn't have, he's not smoking throughout the whole day or whatever, but that's when he likes to do it when it's, you know, when it's not the normal get-together pairing cigar kind of thing, or you're with friends, with that's what he'll do it in the morning. He's like, it seems like there's it's a peaceful time and no one's bothering you. Yeah.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:03

When it's nice and quiet, you have a nice little cup of coffee, something.

SPEAKER_04 1:07:10

A little Irish in your coffee, you know.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:13

Just get the day going.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:16

Well, that doesn't that works if you work. Yeah. Well, I don't like to go back there.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:26

But well, that would thankfully we both work from home. Right.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:30

We work from home here.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:31

So yeah, we work from home.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:33

So that's good. All right, guys. Thanks. Thanks for uh giving us an in, you know, telling us what it was like to do do that. Thank you for having me. And we just so thankful.

SPEAKER_03 1:07:46

The KO is here for us, and we will be here for the round three of the KL.

SPEAKER_02 1:07:52

That's excellent. Thanks for having me. I'll be right back. Well, you might have to set up a boxing, a bare knuckle boxing match. Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_07 1:08:02

Oh goodness.

SPEAKER_00 1:08:05

Hey John, tell Jeff about the first bare knuckle fighting championship that we sponsored almost 10 years ago. Remember that in Wyoming?

SPEAKER_08 1:08:16

Well, Peter was handled that mostly. Yeah. Yeah. So but people people ask us all the time. So were you two boxers? I was like, do I look like a boxer?

SPEAKER_02 1:08:30

Yeah, but but I mean the the the ultimate biting, you know, you should get there's a sponsorship in there, isn't there? Oh yeah.

SPEAKER_08 1:08:40

And and we and we have we have sponsored several of those also in the local area here to and mixed martial arts also. So but yeah, the the brand has worked very well for us and and a very a very well-known alcohol company had bare knuckle as

Sponsorships, Final Thoughts, And Wrap

SPEAKER_08 1:09:00

as their trademark and they let it lap. I can't believe they let it lapse and we were able to pick it up. It was it was amazing. Especially, you know, with when you have a tra you paying all the money up front to get the trademark and then it's just a renewal fee, you know, every couple years or every year. I I can't believe they let it lapse, but we were able to pick it up, so that was a great thing for us.

SPEAKER_02 1:09:27

Okay, that's awesome. Alright, so what we should do is wrap it up. Do you guys got a couple more minutes to take some questions from people? Sure. Alright, so what I'll do is quickly do promotion for the Scotchy Bourbon Boys. You'll hear our our AI theme song, that's the end. And then I during that I send out the invitation to all the people that are that are listening, and they they liked they really like the cigar guys. I mean, that club and everything. Everybody's commenting on on Facebook, so and then they can uh you can answer a few questions. Now, they like to stay on and talk about a bunch of other crap every once in a while and whatever. So as soon as you guys are ready to go, you're out. Just say, hey guys, we gotta go. I know you're at the it's late, you're at the distillery and everything, so just let me know. But the the I'm sure there's some you know guys that want to ask some questions after tonight, because they always do. All right. All right, everybody. That's a wrap. www.scotchyburbonboys.com for all things, Scotchy Bourbon Boys. Check out our t-shirts, our Glen Karens, and then also follow us on Facebook, YouTube, Instagram, and X along with Apple iHeart and Spotify. Whether you watch us or you listen to us, remember. Leave good feedback, become a member, you know, you know, just everything that that you, you know, that how you support the Scotchy Bourbon boys will go right back into everything that we do, whether it's the bottles that we have to purchase or the places we have to go. But remember, good bourbon equals good friends and good times. Make sure that you drink responsibly, don't drink and drive, and live your life uncut and unfiltered, just like us. And AI is gonna take us out.